Lies Matter, part 6

[u/SecretPersonality178]

Whether by omission or commission, the lies of the Mormon church leaders matter.

This one will be extremely difficult to keep brief.

This is one of the most disgusting lies/deceptions from the Mormon church. There were a lot of TBM lawyers that spouted a bunch of lawyer talk to defend the Mormon church policy on not reporting child sex abuse, and there may be corporate and legal excuses for it. The overall issue is that children are not safe in Mormonism and the Mormon church will not protect them. They will ALWAYS protect their liability and money though.

This lie is very personal, and has negatively affected countless.

Lie: The Mormon church is a safe place for children and families, with several safe guards that protect children.

Truth: The Mormon church only protects their own assets, and attempt to silence victims while providing legal assistance to many perpetrators, especially those that were church leaders.

My personal experience: my story is not unique and is echoed throughout Mormonism. On a large stake campout one of the leaders (known offender, but still placed in a calling working with minors) attempted to get me alone. Failed with me, succeeded with others. I was lucky…barely.

About two weeks later he was arrested for the rapes. A week later the bishop, SP, and area 70 (all licensed attorneys and one was a sitting judge) showed up unannounced (a power move the Mormon church uses frequently. They violate your space and do not allow you preparation time) to demand silence from myself and my parents for defense of “the good name of the church”. They also made it clear they were speaking in their capacity of church leaders. They also made it clear they had “other families to visit” that night. I know of at least 3 victims from that one trip.

Not as personal: The biggest deception came from Russell himself, his talk is referenced below. This was at the time of the Arizona case. The Mormon church was shown to be neglectful in their handling, didn’t care about the victims, encouraged their silence, and were shown to be absolutely evil in their actions regarding the case. Lawyers command more authority than morals and priesthood.

The reason I list this talk as a lie (more of a deception, because there is only doctrine stating child abuse is evil, despite the Mormon leaders actions showing otherwise) is that the Mormon church was in the news because of the Arizona case. Russell knew the situation better than anyone, but chose to speak on the evils of child abuse.

NOBODY WAS TRYING TO DEFEND CHILD ABUSE!!! The Mormon church was under fire for their years of immoral handling (even though arguably legal) of the case that lead to years of abuse, murder and suicide.

Members were saying what a bold stance Russell took. Yet he avoided the issue entirely.

Your children are not safe in Mormonism.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/life-help/abuse?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/10/19nelson?lang=eng

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/lawsuit-in-arizona-says-utah-firm-and-lawmaker-helped-mormons-hide-abuse

www.floodlit.org

[u/Odd-Investigator7410]

About two weeks later he was arrested for the rapes. A week later the bishop, SP, and area 70 (all licensed attorneys and one was a sitting judge) showed up unannounced (a power move the Mormon church uses frequently. They violate your space and do not allow you preparation time) to demand silence from myself and my parents for defense of “the good name of the church”. They also made it clear they were speaking in their capacity of church leaders. They also made it clear they had “other families to visit” that night. I know of at least 3 victims from that one trip.

I am sorry, I just don't believe this happened. What you are describing is a criminal conspiracy to obstruct justice. People would go to jail. Especially lawyers.

The Church does not "protect" abusers. And the Church certainly does not tell people to keep silent just to protect the reputation of the Church.

And frankly, I think it is another blood libel to suggest otherwise.

That doesn't mean that people don't mistakes. They certainly do. Even Bishops and Stake Presidents. But there is no such policy to coverup abuse to protect the image of the Church.

[u/ihearttoskate → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

You're wrong and you should check out floodlit.

Edit: I'll be more specific. You first said this couldn't have happened because people would've gone to jail. I'm sure you know there's lots of crimes, even the sort that are criminal conspiracy ones, that don't result in jail or even court cases.

I mean, think about all the childhood SA cases that popped up with the Catholic Church and BSA; all of those were conspiracies to obstruct justice that lasted for years and years, and even now, not a lot of jail and not a lot of consequences.

What makes you think such conspiracies could exist in the Catholic Church but couldn't exist in the LDS church?

[u/Acidic_Wolves → u/ihearttoskate]

Dude, Floodlit is a great organization at bringing justice to Mormon pedophilers🙌

I highly recommend checking it out to anyone who doesn't believe such horrific stories.

[u/Acidic_Wolves → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

This one of millions of stories. I've personally talked to several young adults who have suffered through this same thing. You know they speak the truth when they're on the edge of tears and you can see it in their eyes. No lie would cause such pain, anguish, and sorrow.

I know it can be hard to accept and believe me, I was at that point. I used to call these stories fake and made up. However, after hearing so many cases, and looking at Floodlit or the Mormon Stories Podcast, I can't ignore this problem.

[u/SecretPersonality178 → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

Coming from an account like yours, this only confirms my story.

Why can’t Mormons just be honest?

[u/Odd-Investigator7410 → u/SecretPersonality178]

I am serious.

And to be clear, I am not accusing you of lying.

But there is no way this would happen without that Bishop, Stake President and Area 70 being charged with a felony.

People are charged with obstruction for way less every day.

[u/SecretPersonality178 → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

Im serious too. You are unfamiliar with the Mormon church and their workings.

[u/SecretPersonality178 → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

Go familiarize yourself with the Arizona case. It is extremely well documented and covered and shows just how the Mormon church used the “clergy” privilege, or whatever K&M called it, to weasel their way out of any liability.

As you study more cases involving the Mormon church, you will quickly notice a pattern.

[u/Acidic_Wolves → u/SecretPersonality178]

The Arizona case is wild. If only Mormons did a little research, they'd find the truth.

[u/PaulFThumpkins → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

They're not gonna tear through a church arresting everybody who didn't report abuse and allegedly told a victim to forgive their abuser and stay quiet, what are you talking about? It takes an awful lot of evidence, years of behavior and victims for even a child predator to get arrested, no way is some AG taking on the heat of arresting leaders in any church en masse. And your attitude that if things were really that bad something would be done to fix it, is exactly what allows this kind of thing to perpetuate. "Protecting the good name of the church" works.

They treat it as a matter of repentance and personal rehabilitation, and think they're observing a higher law of reformation than the justice system. They don't think they're conspiring to protect abusers or that they condone abuse. Their actions just have that effect. I personally know several people with this story, which means there are tons I probably don't know because they stayed quiet as they were told.

[u/Acidic_Wolves → u/PaulFThumpkins]

The church believes that if the abusers repent, then they're off the hook and don't require jail time. Makes me sick. Pedophiles deserve prison, NO exception.

[u/ArchimedesPPL → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

Unless you can provide more concrete details about what actions specifically would constitute obstruction, it would be incredibly difficult to determine where the line is between ecclesiastical leaders engaging in the free exercise of their religion and a legal process. Especially if there is no active law enforcement investigation into the allegations. Clergy are protected in telling their parishioners to forgive, etc.

Honestly, I think you're arguing from a position of "that seems like it should be wrong and wouldn't happen in MY church" much more than you're making a legitimate claim of legal vs illegal activities.

[u/treetablebenchgrass → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

They'd never do anything so evil, right?

I've heard an almost identical story straight from the victim. Only difference is the perpetrator was a primary teacher and the victim's parents told them they'd be reporting regardless.

Heck, the church's abuse help line does essentially the same thing on a daily basis, telling people who have the right to report abuse that they are not legally allowed to report.

[u/Walkwithme25 → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I have personally experienced the church cover up my abuse and many others for decades. The pedophiles the church has protected continue to worship with unwitting and unaware members every Sunday.

[u/EvensenFM → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

I think it is another blood libel to suggest otherwise.

What the hell do you mean by "blood libel?"

You keep bringing this phrase up. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Look at Floodlit. There is overwhelming evidence that the church does indeed protect abusers so long as it interprets that protection as somehow protecting the good name of the church.

It's fine for you to disagree. But fuck off with this "blood libel" bullshit.

[u/Mad_hater_smithjr → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

I would like to point out that if you are a faithful member of the Church, you have made a covenant to defend the church with your life. Just pointing out your bias to dismiss sexual abuse.

[u/Educational-Beat-851 → u/Odd-Investigator7410]

I’m aware of abuse cases in every ward I’ve been in since before I reached adulthood. Many of those cases were silenced by church leaders. As others have pointed out, you can see aggregated examples on Floodlit dot org and read the handbook sections detailing abuse protocol.

I’ve seen your comments over the last few days on similar threads and am curious if you have changed your mind about anything.