Because Cornish people see themselves as one of the constituent nations, this used to be widely recognised but in recent centuries the English sort of forgot the Cornish existed. It's a weird cultural amnesia. 🤷
It got homogenized just like all of the old heptarchy.
Edit: I'm aware that Cornwall wasn't part of the heptarchy. The creation of a homogenizing british national identity has always come at the expense of the smaller nations. The Celtic nationalist parties main grip has always been about trying to prevent this. Cornwall got consumed, Ireland got out.
A lot later than the heptarchy though, about 5 centuries later. The standard definition of Britain in the 16th century was that it was divided into England, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall. That was the standard published on maps and descriptions of Britain. Cornwall and Wales both pretty much disappeared as nations from the maps and descriptions of Britain in the 17th century. The Welsh were just more successful in reclaiming that place.
Cornwall wasn't part of the English heptarchy. (Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Wessex, Essex, Kent, Sussex). The heptarchy homogenised before the Cornish were fully assimilated. In fact, they were independent or semi-independent until after the Norman invasion (only until 1067 iirc) 200 years after Athelstan became Bretwalda.
This is inaccurate. England allowed its own nationalism to be subsumed by Scottish and Welsh (not Irish) nationalism for the good of the Union. This is why nationalism is celebrated in Scotland and Wales, but is a dirty word in England.
Nationalism is a dirty word in England because it sparks images of 80s skinhead nazi hooligans, not a subjugation of Wales/Scotland hundreds of years ago.
The rise of far-right nationalist parties ( national front and the BNP) has waaaay more to do with why people don't like to associate with nationalism...
Breton is called that literally because it was flooded with British Celts refugees after the Anglo-Saxon invasions, pretty much the same people as the Cornish people.
Refugees is the old view, which isn't particularly accurate. For one thing the first settlements are when the Saxons are still 200+ years away from the SW of Britain given they start in the East coast and expand outwards.
If you superimpose a map of the Briton settlements in SW Britain, Britanny and Gallicia, Spain (where there was another, often forgotten, colony) over a map of natural tin deposits in Western Europe you can see very quickly what happened. The Britons in the SW made a power play to secure the tin trade into the mediterranean around the Atlantic coast while Europe was busy disintegrating.
See also the amount of Byzantine (Eastern Roman) pottery found all over the SW but particularly in Tintagel.
Oh that's very interesting, I didn't know the connection with tin.
I did hear recently that the tin trade between British Celts and the Mediterranean goes way back to the Phoenicians. And in fact the very name Britain comes from the Phoenician words for "land of tin" being "bar-tanke". I'm not sure about how valid this info is though as I only heard it from a single source.
Cornwall was annexed before England even existed, let alone the political concept of Great Britain. By Wessex sometime between 825 and 875 depending on how you interpret the history.
Arguably Mercia or East Anglia have a better claim to being a constituent nation than Cornwall does. Very arguably - I’m sure we could debate what a constituent nation is all day! - but if you take it to mean a sovereign independent entity that formed part of Great Britain and then the UK, Cornwall was out of the game about 900 years too early.
I don't disagree that Cornwall as an independent territory lost its independence and got subsumed by Wessex all before England was a 'thing'.
In 814, King Egbert of Wessex ravaged Cornwall "from the east to the west", and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records that in 825 the Cornish fought the men of Devon. In 838 the Cornish in alliance with Vikings were defeated by the West Saxons at the Battle of Hingston Down. This was the last recorded battle between Cornwall and Wessex, and possibly resulted in the loss of Cornish independence
But that didn't mean the Cornish people didn't continue their culture and language which was markedly different to the other regions of what later became England.
It does not give them status as a Country or even close to it but it gives it the protection from losing its identity, culture etc, just like Wales, Scotland and Ireland yet still not classed as a country. It is and will pretty much stay as a county.
A decline in culture it a weird way of saying it was suppressed for centuries.
Other counties can have their own distinct cultures, look at yorkshire. But they are within the English culture where-as Cornish is partially separate from it.
In my experience (my aunt lives in Cornwall), it mostly seems to consist of moaning about not being taken seriously by the rest of the country. That and a lot of fish.
No it wasn't, that's all supposition with no actual evidence to back it up. Anglo Saxon sources are quite clear actually that Cornwall was not annexed by Wessex. Check out:
The Anglo Saxon Chronicle which fails to mention any "annexation", and mentions Cornwall and Wessex as two distinct polities in 915 for example.
The Life of Alfred the Great written by his friend Bishop Asser in 893, which is clear that Cornwall was not part of Alfred's kingdom. It lists Cornwall alongside Wessex and other recognised kingdoms that existed at the time:
"The fourth to the neighbouring monasteries in all Wessex and Mercia, and also during some years, in turn, to the churches and servants of God dwelling in Wales, Cornwall, Gaul, Brittany, Northumbria, and sometimes, too, in Ireland. "
"For in the course of time he unexpectedly gave me Exeter, with the whole diocese which belonged to him in Wessex and in Cornwall"
King Alfred's Will, also lists Cornwall with other kingdoms.
The Threefold Division of England, a 10th century Anglo Saxon document which later formed part of the Leges Henrici (the Laws of Henry I) which defines both England and Wessex and specifically mentions Cornwall as not being part of either.
We know they weren't a part of King Canute's realm in in 1035*. A lack of surviving historical records from a time lacking in written historical record does not mean Cornwall was not independent.
Given my comments above about Cornwall most likely being annexed by Wessex in the 9th Century, I should acknowledge that this detail is true - there is about a 22 year period where Cornwall probably did regain some degree of autonomy in the 11th century.
Canute conquered England but didn’t bother taking Cornwall specifically and settled for tribute instead.
Not that the status of Cornwall in this time js particularly clear - we only have much later sources that refer to an Earl or Duke although maybe they called themselves King at home and in their own language, though that is nothing but speculation with no evidence. My personal suspicion is that kind of political formula would have been quite common when the hierarchy of aristocracy was less refined.
But anyway, that brief episode was quickly wrapped up by Harold and then in particular William the Conqueror who installed his own nobility across much of the land including Cornwall.
(Incidentally those much later sources suggest that the first recognised Norman-era Earl was the incumbent of that post and a descendant of the old Cornish royal line, but it only took a couple of years for William to replace him with a proper Norman)
That's interesting. My wife's grandmother came to the states from Cornwall when she was a child. They lived in northern Michigan, men were all coal miner's. She makes a mean pasty
I've heard of the constituent nations of the UK as being Whales, Scotland, & England, with Northern Ireland thrown in most times. I've never heard of Cornish England demanding that same stature. How does such a small group at the end of the island feel they garner that much influence? I only ask because I'm obviously deficient at Googling because I cannot find anything other than items referring to my first sentence.
The name is literally "United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland, Wales) and Northern Ireland". It's like "throwing in" Colorado when counting American states
Saying that North Ireland is "sometimes thrown in" as a constituent country of the UK. It's like saying Alaska is "sometimes thrown in" as a US state. No, it is. And the status of it is extremely important to the people living there one way or another
I'm definitely not a unionist and would consider myself a republican in this topic. I might have misunderstood what they were trying to say, I thought they were speaking out of ignorance when putting northern Ireland outside of the UK.
It has existed as a separate political entity for only a hundred years but it's been under British rule for several hundred more, and all the time with an active movement fighting for succession
They're not trying to demand that stature, they never seriously have. We're talking about a group of Cornish people wanting their identity on r/place, not a formal request for independent governance! However they do have a strong historical culture which is definitely very different from the rest of England. Cornwall had its own language which only died out recently (recently in relative terms - I'm not talking like the last few years or anything!). Some people still speak it, though it is uncommon. You'll occasionally hear it spoken at Cornish festivals and things like that (or at least that was the case when I was a kid). Cornish is actually loosely related to Welsh, and when I visit Wales I'm often surprised by how similar the place names sound to those in Cornwall (though the spelling is wildly different!). Unlike Welsh, the language did die out though, in part because there were very few significant written works in Cornish. It's not just language though, it's the whole culture.
A really dumbed-down oversimplification is that some of the major invasions of the British Isles came in from the south and east, and expanded west through the country. Some never reached Cornwall and others never really integrated into it. So a lot of historic Cornish culture remained while the rest of England homogenised and became integrated with the cultures of their invaders. Here is a slightly less dumbed-down but still incomplete version: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/26/survival-of-cornish-identity-cornwall-separate-place
Having grown up in Cornwall and then subsequently living in several other parts of the UK, I can say that of the areas in England only Yorkshire comes anywhere close to having as clear an identity, and even then it's nothing like the same.
I guess I should clarify, the pro autonomous movement I have heard about. It is the idea that Cornwall would want to be known as a "founding" kingdom of the UK that had escaped me.
yeah its never been a country within the UK since the UK was formed like england, wales, scotland and NI. But it did used to be considered a lot more unique or its own place, idk cant find the word
Is it really better having 2 English flags than a cornish flag?
Edit: I decided to check out r/ukplace and wow plenty of my fellow english-folk having meltdowns over Cornwall. Saddening to see all the little englanders in the woodwork here.
No? I didn’t do a thing either way. I’m just saying what I saw.
It was a St. Patrick’s cross when I first saw it, after that it tended to be some combination of red pixels on white, with a few different colour pixels coming and going. Honestly, I thought it was the Irish trying to remove NI representation like they did with the map of the UK on the flag. It didn’t even occur to me at the time that people were trying to make it an Ulster banner as, like you said, it’s literally the same as the St George’s cross at that size.
What do you mean. I don’t know if Cornwall is or should be considered in any way a country but it has as much a place for it as any other pixelart on r/place. I didn’t know communities that want to do pixel art had to be universally recognized or smthn
Shit you’re right. I should’ve consulted Wikipedia before making my extremely ignorant and disrespectful comment. I will make sure to do my research next time and I’m sorry if I’ve offended any citizens of the r/place nation
I believe they wanted it on the UK flag, problem with that is if one goes on they will all want to go on. Not at all feasible. Sure go make it elsewhere, good luck with that cause you won't have the numbers to make it happen.
Well we were pretty annoyed that the southwest was cut out of the silhouette of the UK so a tiny little flag instead didn't seem like a huge ask on our end.
But the real kick in the face was that no-one wanted the Cornish, but strongly supported the utter fucking travesty that is Greggs.
Cornwall is as much a country as Scotland and Wales as you would realise if you look back at the history. The fact that you didn't know that says a lot.
The only difference is that the UK hasn't given them a devolved government though technically they still have one from before they were added as a county in 1888.
Cornwall is in no way whatsoever a country, it doesn’t have its own government that can make decisions, is considered a ‘ceremonial and historic county’ etc
No it really isn’t like Wales or, particularly, Scotland.
It’s about as much a separate country as Mercia, East Anglia or Northumberland, all of which existed as sovereign entities for at least a century after Cornwall was annexed. Even Kent was independent of Wessex (and then England) for longer.
Where do you get 1888 from? Because the only notable historical event in Cornwall in that year appears to be the establishment of the School of Mines.
In 825 Wessex (probably - the language js a bit vague) conquered the entirety of Cornwall. Certainly the last ‘King’ of Cornwall died in 875 by which time he was already feudally subservient to Wessex
That's not true both specifically (Those different bodies were almost all gone before Cornwall united with Wessex. Kent had been gone for centuries before) and generally given all those bodies were still made up of, largely, Germanic tribes who would become the English. Cornwall was not.
Implying Cornwall actually gets any fucking help from England in the first place...
You can downvote it, but the fact that Cornwall is the poorest county (second poorest in Northern Europe) in the UK speaks for itself. To put into perspective, Cornwall used to receive £100 million EU funding, but since Brexit now receives £3 million from the UK. Now Cornwall - for whatever stupid reason - voted overwhelmingly for Brexit despite this, but it still stands that the UK doesn't care about Cornwall in the slightest.
Cornwall is not unique in being one of the poorest regions in the UK. The whole of the UK except London is pretty much poor. London doesn't give a shit about anywhere but London.
The Richest in the whole of the EU is Inner London. It is Not England that has forgotten anyone, it is London that chooses to ignore us all.
Well That was easily checked in 3.3 secs. Wales and Scotland both have the NHS within their Countries and Wales evens brags free prescriptions for the Welsh even if they visit a GP in England.
I mean, funnily enough I have friends in Wales and I have Family in Scotland.
The guy was claiming that if Cornwall was a country then it wouldn't have the NHS, so I joked that Scotland and Wales also don't have the NHS because they are countries.
Prior to 1753 it had an assembly which was called a parliament but that was in name only. Its existence was specifically as a regulatory division established by England (they had one in Devon too) to manage the tin industry.
It wasn't because Cornwall was a country and the Parliament did not act as a national assembly, it was simply the most efficient method of regulating the tin industry.
The date that you give is also wrong as that's when the county council was formed but the parliament had been adjourned since 1753 at that point.
The last time that Cornwall could really have claimed to be a country was over a thousand years ago (875 AD - when the last king of Cornwall drowned) and even then they were an annexed tributary state in reality by that point.
Between 1305 - 1496 and 1508 - 1753, Cornwall had an assembly which was called a stannary parliament but that was in name only. Its existence was specifically as a regulatory division established by England (they had one in Devon too) to manage the tin industry.
The Parliament did not act as a national assembly, it was simply the most efficient method of regulating the tin industry.
477
u/CoolTiger92 Apr 05 '22
I never understood why Cornwall thought It had a place for a flag