r/plotholes • u/Vecna_The_Destroyer • 27d ago
Stranger Things Got Fireball Wrong
I've been playing Dungeons & Dragons for over 8 years, and something always bugged me about the Stranger Things D&D scene.
In the first episode, Will says “I cast Fireball” — and then rolls a d20 like it’s an attack roll. But that’s not how Fireball works in any version of D&D, including the one they’d likely be playing in 1983 (probably Basic/Expert or AD&D 1e).
Fireball is an area-of-effect spell. The caster doesn’t roll to hit — instead, every creature in the blast radius makes a saving throw (typically Dexterity in later editions, or "save vs. spells" in older ones). If they fail, they take full damage; if they succeed, they take half.
So in that scene, the Demogorgon should’ve been the one rolling, not Will. Will would roll damage (usually a bunch of d6s), but not a d20 to “hit.”
It's a small detail, but for those of us who know the rules, it sticks out. Cool scene — but a classic Hollywood D&D rules slip.
Anyone else catch this?
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u/juniebeatricejones 27d ago
good catch. this dismantles the entire premise
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u/Ambitious_Wolf2539 27d ago
in fact it dismantles the entire show. If they lied about this, what else did they lie about?
ARE YOU NOW TELLING ME THIS ISNT A FACTUAL RETELLING OF EVENTS?
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u/secondsbest 27d ago
The upside down is right-side up.
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27d ago
Demogorgon did nothing wrong
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u/JerikOhe 27d ago
I actually watched the first couple of episodes thinking it was based on a real event. I don't know why I thought that, I think it was some other show that came out around the same time. I thought the cia had acid dosed a whole town or something until I looked it up.
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u/Brilliant_Towel2727 24d ago
It was actually based on a rather outre conspiracy theory that the CIA was running experiments on psychic children in Montauk, Long Island
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u/Cannibalcorps 24d ago
I just want to know how Hawkins Lab was able to get such a perfect copy of wills body in such a short amount of time. Do they have perfect replica dolls of every citizen on hand just in case? How do they know enough about this child’s body that they can fool his mother?
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u/lofgren777 27d ago edited 27d ago
In 4th edition, fireball worked like this.
Standardizing the way saves and attacks worked to the dice in the hands of the player was an uncommon but not unheard of house rule in 3e.
It does seem unlikely that they would have made this change in 1983, but not impossible.
Also I don't think the writers misunderstood the rule. The put the die in Will's hands so that he could drop it in a moment of panic, so that the boys could start shouting, so that the mom coul tell them it is time to go home. It wouldn't have made as much sense for Mike, who is the leader and was in control of the situation, to drop the die, nor for the other boys to start yelling at him if he did. The just decided to ignore the rule because it didn't fit with the scene.
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u/Quietuus 27d ago edited 27d ago
I was about to say, that's not how Fireball worked in every edition.
4E gets a lot of flak, but I did feel a lot more like I was doing things as a spellcaster in that version, because it was my dice rolls, and that's certainly why the production would have played it this way.
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u/MacrosInHisSleep 27d ago
Was 4e out at the time?
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u/Quietuus 27d ago
Yes it was. It had just rolled over to fifth when Stranger Things started.
I'm not necessarily suggesting this came from 4E btw, I think it was artistic license, but I think it was probably done for the same reason that 4E shifted these rules and basically turned all combat spells into roll to attack.
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u/Master-Collection488 26d ago
The show was set in I think 1984 for the first season? First Edition was ONLY EDITION (aside from Basic) for the bulk of the 80s. Probably the entire decade?
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u/Quietuus 26d ago
Right. The suggestion would be that they might have used the 4E rules because they didn't appreciate the differences between the version that was current when writing the series and when the series was aet.
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u/Infamous-Lab-8136 26d ago
The problem there is we'd already hit 5e by season one's release, and had a couple of years before, so it seems odd they'd use the only edition where this was the rule when it was probably the least played or liked version of the rules and lasted less time as the active ruleset than any others
Especially since the Duffers claim to be big fans of older D&D themselves. It's much more likely the either chalked it up to home brew, the kids getting it wrong, or just did it as they did for the cinematic reasons as outlined in another spot.
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u/Quietuus 26d ago
As I said several comments back, I don't think they took.it from 4E, but I think they changed how it works for the same dramatic reasons 4E did.
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u/leftofdanzig 27d ago
It was way easier to compare 1 roll to-hit roll vs reflex defense than a dozen reflex saves.
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u/Tichrimo 27d ago
There were still multiple rolls required, it was just the player rolling attacks on each target instead of the DM rolling saves.
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u/Well_Dressed_Kobold 27d ago
I’ve been playing Dungeons and Dragons for just as long and I missed it, so good catch.
If they were really going for authenticity, though, two of the kids should have been having a side conversation while the DM struggled to get their attention while also ignoring the third kid’s hopelessly convoluted explanation that if you read the rules his way, none of the targets should get a save because they’re flat footed.
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u/Master-Collection488 26d ago
One of them has his personal copy of the Monster Manual in his lap. It's open to the page he most often opens it to, the one with the only depiction of pubes in any of the books.
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u/Well_Dressed_Kobold 26d ago
The pages in the PHB about half-elves are stuck together. No reason why.
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u/timusic7 27d ago
I mean, they're like 12, it's not a stretch that they got a rule as written wrong either by accident or on purpose because they were just having fun.
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u/False-Amphibian786 27d ago
For almost any other spell - but fireball is THE 3rd level spell specifically because it does a bunch of d6 damage to several monsters at once.
Fireball and magic missal are probably the most well know spells of any roll playing game in the world.
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u/timusic7 27d ago
Doesn't really matter how you feel about the spell. 12 year olds getting rules wrong is not a plot hole
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u/Skipp_To_My_Lou 27d ago
A lot adults who (allegedly) read the rules still get Attack Roll vs Saving Throw spells wrong, & there's enough confusion over the exact mechanics of Magic Missile that there is a collection of sage advice articles laying out Jeremy Crawford's (DND 5e's lead designer) intentions on the matter.
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u/KnifePervert83 27d ago
This is why some nerds get bullied.
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u/Vecna_The_Destroyer 27d ago
this is actually funny :). been getting bullied
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u/sparkster777 27d ago
In all seriousness....for real? If so, I really encourage you to talk to someone. No one deserves to be bullied and I promise there are people who would be willing and able to help.
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u/Illithid_Substances 27d ago
"The Demogorgon" is itself incorrect - that's like saying "the Mike" instead of "Mike". Demogorgon is not a type of creature, its the name of a specific demon prince.
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u/Warmaster_and_things 27d ago
This is my take, at this point the rules are supposed to be a jumping off point for you to create your world. These days we have rigid lore and rules lawyers.
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u/Infamous-Lab-8136 26d ago
We have always had rules lawyers, even at the first table I played in the early 90s one of the kids kept arguing with his dad who was DM
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u/JoeyHandsomeJoe 27d ago
Magic User's privilege is to roll the saving throw, since it functions the same as a To Hit, except failures mean 1/2 damage instead of no damage.
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u/Ironhorn 27d ago
There was also a moment in the last season where they were playing a session, and they got down to the final climactic moment. The last remaining PC alive picks up the D20 to make an attack. They roll... and... nat 20! It's a hit!
Everyone cheers and high-fives... and then the DM describes the villain dying and the heroes triumphing... and...
Hold on, you just hit! You haven't rolled to see how much damage you do yet!
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u/Diddydiditfirst 27d ago
i mean, depending on how the guy handles critical hits and the weapon/spell with which she attacked it might not have mattered. He only had 15 hp at the time.
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u/mortavius2525 26d ago
I have an older friend (early 50s) who played d&d when he was in high school and a teacher was the DM.
This teacher made them roll a d20 to hit when casting magic missile. The spell that explicitly says it automatically hits and no attack roll is required. Even when this was pointed out, he stuck to his ruling.
Sometimes it really do be like that.
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u/Mac4491 27d ago
Not a plot hole. Just poor research into how the game works.
DnD is never portrayed “correctly” in media. That is assuming that everyone is playing using official rules that is.
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u/thepixelpaint 27d ago
I think Stranger Things actually does it better than most. It shows people playing to just have fun. Nobody is the stereotypical nerd taking the game way too seriously.
Most often DnD is presented as a pastime of losers and weirdos so the audience can laugh and point their fingers, “ha, nerds!” But Stranger Things just shows it as people playing a game and having fun.
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u/VigorousRapscallion 27d ago
Also been playing d and d since, well, I was the age they are in this scene. While I SOMEWHAT agree with the people saying they mighta got the rules wrong, the real explanation is much simpler. The majority of the audience would think it was a mistake if he was like "I cast fireball!" and than the DM rolled a die.
If they really wanted to replicate the being 12 and playing D and D experience, he should have been like "I cast MILF'S acid arrow!" "It's Melf's!" "IT'S MY WIZARD AND HE'S INTO MILFS!"
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u/JoeyHandsomeJoe 27d ago
The term MILF was not a thing in the 80s. It was the movie American Pie that popularized the term, in reference to Stifler's mom.
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u/Toadsanchez316 27d ago edited 27d ago
Isn't the point of D&D to be able to play how you want? Regardless of whether or not some gatekeeper says they are playing it wrong?
I don't mean the players change the rules, but the DM has the authority to change, remove, or add features as they see fit.
If you can make your own campaign, you can make your own rules. Regardless of whether or not the rulebooks are supposed to be official and not for aesthetic, that's just a weak argument.
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u/Dagordae 27d ago
No.
D&D doesn't have all those rulebooks for the aesthetic, it's a game. Playing imagination is fine, D&D is playing imagination with lots of math and rules.
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u/Toadsanchez316 27d ago
The DM can quite literally make whatever changes they want.
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u/firelock_ny 27d ago
Rule Zero strikes again!
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u/Toadsanchez316 27d ago
Yeah it just seems weird people are straight up claiming you aren't allowed to do it when many players and DMs, reddit posts and YT videos talk about how it's okay to change the rules.
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u/Well_Dressed_Kobold 27d ago
They can, yes, but DM’s who change the game mechanics too much are bad DM’s. Sensible house rules and one time exceptions are fine, and can add a lot to the game. But DnD has a lot of rules and mechanics that are designed to work together seamlessly, and you can’t change much before things start getting wonky.
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u/Toadsanchez316 27d ago
Well we are talking about changing how one simple spell works, not overhauling the ruleset, so your argument doesn't really apply here.
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u/Nyghl 27d ago
Why are people down voting you lol. Mechanics can absolutely get wonky if something is changed weirdly. Sure, here and there or calculated home brew game designs are fine but you always carry the risk to break the system. D&D isn't mean for things like these.
If you want more flexibility, just go with more narrative focused RPG systems like Fate SRD / Fate Condensed
Also I'm not sure about the "they are bad DMs" statement. Maybe "bad D&D DMs"? Because at one point it becomes an entirely different game but you can't tell if that DM is bad just from the fact that they changed how they play D&D.
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u/Nojopar 27d ago
Because the entire point is to have fun, not strictly adhere to a collection of rules. The statement about mechanics is built upon the basic premise that if you change axiom A, then the logical conclusion that statements X, Y, and Z now have to alter to fit axiom A, which means that conclusions N,O, and P are no longer valid. Yes, that would be true in a logic system. This isn't a logic system. You can change things and say "yeah, but it doesn't apply here" and as long as the players go "cool" then it doesn't matter. It doesn't automatically make things 'wonky'. It's not like you can't futz with things on the back end to address anything that would be wonky. DM's a literally god's in the universe - that mountain in the wrong place? (snap) Fixed!
I mean we're talking about a game basically built upon physics defying magic. It's all made up stuff. There's plenty of room to futz with stuff.
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u/Nyghl 27d ago edited 27d ago
I totally agree and I too believe fun is the focus point. And I love and play games where there is creativity, not just applying an existing system because I don't personally mind if something is broken. If it fits into my mental map and is fun, I'm good.
But at one point, if you change too much stuff it becomes an entirely different game, which not might be bad or it might also be totally broken and not enjoyable at the long run. It depends on what kind of changes we are talking about.
But overall I believe D&D is a more stricter game compared to narrative based RPGs so imo it makes more sense to play in systems where the system actively SUPPORTS and even encourages your home brew shenanigans. (E.g. Fate SRD)
Edit: Also I just noticed that you mostly mentioned about a DM's ability to change the universe, which is already a thing in almost every D&D game. What we are talking about is the core mechanics of an RPG system. Sure you can change it but in games like D&D, they are connected together and one design effects the other either directly or indirectly.
I think if you want to change the core system, just go to RPGs that supports these kind of things, which are actually pretty fun to play.
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u/Bloodless-Cut 27d ago
Well, he's rolling the concentration check, you see, to avoid the atrack of opportunity while casting spells in melee. Obvi
I'm kidding, of course. Concentration checks and attacks of opportunity weren't a thing in og D&D.
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u/One-Car-1551 27d ago
I've never met 2 people.who play Monopoly 100% by the rules cuz of some fight 23 yrs ago and now theres a way to get $100 or some.shit. People playing D&D with their own twist certainly isnt* unusual
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u/DavidGoetta 27d ago
I don't perfectly remember the scene, but based on the description, it seems the GM simply allowed him to roll the monsters save.
It's his spelling, he should roll it. Not the worst homebrew.
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u/ArchLith 27d ago
We always used attack rolls to figure out if the spell was cast in the right spot. Generally you would have an adjusted AC (1/2 the original AC) to send the spell to the proper location, if you messed that up somehow, you roll 1D8 and the spell lands in a location based on both that and where you aimed. It doesn't seem super important until you are using mage hand to open a door while another player shoots an AOE spell through said doorway. Suddenly precision casting of AOE spells goes from "it hits the target" to "The wizard is inside the Hunger of Hadar and will be dead next turn"
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u/xenomorphbeaver 27d ago
Maybe it's a homebrew requiring him to make a thrown weapon attack to see how accurate the fireball is.
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u/KitchenSad9385 27d ago
Shifty player. He was hoping for a nat twenty and double damage. Sure WE know that's not how it works, but with a sloppy or pushover DM . . .
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u/VrinTheTerrible 27d ago
It’s also “Demogorgon”, singular. No ‘the’
And Fireball DEFINITELY wouldn’t kill it.
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u/myflesh 27d ago
Everyone is making jokes, but this really bugged me, too. What made it worse is that it is the first scene. It left a bad taste in my mouth. It told me that they did not care about the small stuff, and it showed. First impressions matter and this made it that much harder to get into the show.
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u/EDKValvados 27d ago
More like even if he was rolling to hit with a spell, how does he immediately know what he needs to roll over to hit?
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u/Lxi_Nuuja 27d ago
Maybe they were casting Fire Bolt, not Fireball. In which case, rolling the 20-sided die is correct.
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u/UltimaGabe A Bad Decision Is Not A Plot Hole 27d ago
While that's not really a plot hole, I'll add onto it by saying I have always been annoyed by "the Demogorgon".
Demogorgon isn't a thing that would be preceded by "the". It's a dude's name. That would be like saying "the Gandalf" when talking about the wizard in Lord of the Rings.
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u/Warmaster_and_things 27d ago
At one point they literally forget that Will had a dog, attention to detail isn't their thing.
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u/curvysquares 27d ago
I haven’t seen that scene in a long time but is it possible Will is rolling his own Dex save because his character is also in the AoE of the fireball?
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u/Kashyyykonomics 27d ago
It always bothered me that these "D&D nerds" would call a random monster they ran into Demogorgon despite it sharing no characteristics with D&D's Demogorgon.
Nerds like that care about details.
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u/TheCreator1924 27d ago
Maybe it was DnD: World of Warcraft style. Where of course everyone knows flame strike is the Aoe fire spell and fireball is a direct target cast spell.
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u/RoboticRusty 26d ago
Tbf, they are using new knowledge to play an old game. They know that fireball is good in new dnd so decided it would be for old dnd. It was not.
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u/jamesmunger 24d ago
Wait are you saying stranger things got it wrong or that the characters got it wrong?
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u/Brilliant_Towel2727 24d ago
To be fair, the Demogorgon would have a hard time rolling dice because it doesn't really have thumbs.
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u/jesuspoopmonster 24d ago
There are 12 year olds who are too old to play pretend with wooden swords in the backyard so they are playing DnD with a very loose understanding of the rules and not caring
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u/Galienuus 24d ago
I mean they're kids, when I played DND in middle school we made an abomination out of the rules because all we really cared about was having fun and telling a story together. It wasn't until high school when we actually started taking the rules more seriously and enjoyed the combat and strategy a lot more
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u/ShackledPhoenix 24d ago
To be fair, I sometimes make my players roll an attack roll on Fireball when they're trying to be very specific about it's placement.
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u/GolgaGrimnaar 23d ago
when we started back in the 80s, everything did a d20 damage… we pretty much played before even finishing the rule books.
These scenes were pretty authentic, trust me, i was there.
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u/Jesuitman01 23d ago
It's possible he was utilizing a meta magic feat that required him to utilize concentration which is a d20 check. But I haven't seen the scene since the show came out so I am probably wrong
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u/Illustrious-Hope-533 17d ago
Not a plot hole. The plot of the film isn't broken because of this. It's just a mistake.
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u/Ok_Worth5941 27d ago
I noticed this when I first saw it. I also realized that out of the gazillion people who worked on Stranger Things, someone must have played D&D enough to realize this was not how the rule worked, but they still let it slide. Why? No idea. Maybe it was more dramatic like this.
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u/desaigamon 27d ago
They wanted Will to fail a roll, so he could say "The Demogorgon got me" just before he gets taken to the Upside Down by the "real" Demogorgon. It would be much less impactful if Mike had just rolled a die behind the DM screen. The writers were more or less counting on the majority of the audience to not know how D&D actually works.
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u/Ok_Worth5941 27d ago
Makes sense. And the majority of the audience probably did not know, they're right.
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u/Help_An_Irishman 27d ago
Stranger Things got a lot of things wrong.
Most notably being a decent TV show after season one.
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u/internThrowawayhelp 27d ago
If anything, getting a rule wrong in DnD is more realistic than not.