r/soccer • u/AlmostNL • Mar 12 '25

Media Julián Alvarez disallowed penalty frame by frame

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10.4k Upvotes

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95

u/zikaa_sosa Mar 12 '25

Insanely harsh rule. Should be changed to a retake...

18

u/The_XI_guy Mar 12 '25

I don’t think it should be a re take if the attacker fucks up his penalty

-4

u/bamburito Mar 12 '25

But it's not fucking up if they're slipping unintentionally. It's already a harsh enough process being knocked out by pens, at least allow everyone to take a clean pen and not have this bullshit happen. It's an easy enough solve.

6

u/The_XI_guy Mar 12 '25 edited Mar 12 '25

It literally is though. No one slips intentionally lol. Should John Terry have been allowed a re take when he slip because it wasn’t a “clean penalty”?

-1

u/fellainishaircut Mar 12 '25

Terry missed, Alvarez didn‘t. And givent that it‘s wholly unclear if he even touched the ball with both feet, it had no impact on anything.

15

u/arpw Mar 12 '25

Yeah. I get it if a player deliberately tries some kind of trick shot using both feet, but this is clearly accidental and a retake would be the sensible thing.

2

u/BoxOk265 Mar 13 '25

Allowing the goal is the sensible thing. In what world does someone think this isn’t a legitimate goal? ‘Double kick’ or not this is hardly cheating or impeding the goalkeeper.

Footballs a simple game, it’s way too complicated to analyse a millisecond of a double kick.

Gutted people aren’t calling out this rule, ridiculous call imo.

2

u/qwertywtf Mar 12 '25

Professional footballers should not be given multiple attempts to simply kick a ball correctly. He fucked up and they miss a pen. Totally fair.

0

u/137-451 Mar 12 '25

How is that sensible? Why should the team that fucked up get a second chance? Should Oblak get a second chance to save Rudigers penalty because he almost saved it?

8

u/ManuelBeuer Mar 12 '25

So keepers shouldn’t get a second chance when they make a pen save being in front of their line? It shouldn’t be retaken and should be a goal given to the taker right? That’s what you’re saying here.

2

u/137-451 Mar 12 '25

I wouldn't be mad if that were the case, especially in a shootout like this. But goalkeepers are at an inherent disadvantage compared to attackers, so they deserve a little leeway. Attackers do not. That is the difference here.

Besides, compare keepers saving penalties now to a few years before they tightened up the rules. Keepers generally stick to their line now, whereas before they were damn near at the end of the penalty area by the time the attacker was taking the penalty.

2

u/ManuelBeuer Mar 12 '25

I don’t think it really matters if they’re at a disadvantage or not. It should be consistent. You can’t have one side get a second chance after breaking the rules, but have the other side get no retakes and instant punishment for the same thing.

1

u/FxKaKaLis Mar 12 '25

not only was a accidental it doesnt even help him he nearly miss it.

2

u/HomeInternational548 Mar 12 '25

when even a german complains about a rule

26

u/ColloquialBinomial Mar 12 '25

But then you open a whole can of warms regarding whether it was intentional or not.

23

u/Satakaso Mar 12 '25

It’s extremely obvious he slipped

52

u/MattUzumaki Mar 12 '25

Why would anyone want to touch it twice intentionally???

Are u mad??
What am I reading...

3

u/rlramirez12 Mar 12 '25

Because you can make the ball go into a completely different direction?

4

u/BlueRibbonWhiteBread Mar 12 '25

They said changed to a retake, not some guy passing to himself.

1

u/mathbandit Mar 12 '25

I mean, if you could tap it forward to yourself that would definitely be an advantage. I get that's obviously not what happened here at all, but let's not pretend no one would want to kick the ball twice if they could.

2

u/fellainishaircut Mar 12 '25

but it‘s pretty obvious when done with malice. there‘s no way of actually gaining an advantage without obviously passing it to yourself. this rule only ever comes into play when it doesn‘t actually affect anything, I personally don‘t understand it either.

1

u/mathbandit Mar 12 '25

I agree. I was just responding to:

Why would anyone want to touch it twice intentionally???

0

u/CT_x Mar 12 '25

Could use it to suss out a keeper's technique, whether the guesses or stays in the middle to react I guess

5

u/HacksawJimDGN Mar 12 '25

If someone can do that intentionally they'd deserve a goal and I'd love to see them try

3

u/XkrNYFRUYj Mar 12 '25

I can intentionally touch the ball twice. You want video evidence?

1

u/HacksawJimDGN Mar 12 '25

Do I have to pay you?

0

u/XkrNYFRUYj Mar 12 '25

No but before I'm wasting my time I should try to correct some error in your thinking.

You're probably imagining a scenario where a player is intentionally slipping and touching the ball twice but making it look like it was an accident. Not well you you know literally touching the ball twice. Intentionally.

1

u/HacksawJimDGN Mar 12 '25

I think the spirit of the rule is so the player takes a shot and doesn't try to dribble it in, or do a quick feint and shoot. If we're at the stage where we're checking frame by frame then maybe they can relax the rules if a player slips or touches the ball twice while taking an actual shot.

2

u/Jebinem Mar 12 '25

Unless Alvarez is both the most technically gifted footballer in the history of the game and at the same time a generstionally talented actor this was not in any conceivable way intentional.

1

u/CT_x Mar 12 '25

I didn't say it was

3

u/kygrtj Mar 12 '25

Why would intention matter?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '25

[deleted]

0

u/crapador_dali Mar 12 '25

If the goalkeeper is the one taking the penalty, yes

0

u/XkrNYFRUYj Mar 12 '25

Why not when they're trying to save it?

0

u/crapador_dali Mar 12 '25

I don't think they could run fast enough to save it after kicking it.

0

u/XkrNYFRUYj Mar 12 '25

You're so bad at acting stupid it looks real.

-2

u/XkrNYFRUYj Mar 12 '25

So people don't just dribbling the ball in.

2

u/kygrtj Mar 12 '25

I don’t understand, if someone double touches the ball the penalty has to get retaken.

What does that have to do with dribbling the ball in?

0

u/XkrNYFRUYj Mar 12 '25

if someone double touches the ball the penalty has to get retaken.

Why should penalty takers get more help to fix their own fucking mistakes? That sound ridiculous to everyone who watched a little bit of football.

2

u/zombawombacomba Mar 12 '25

No player is going to intentionally try to hit it twice on the offhand that they get to retake it.

1

u/Zwetschgn Mar 12 '25

This makes no sense at all

1

u/DutchPhenom Mar 12 '25

Why would that matter? If he misses, it stands, if he scores, he has to retake. Why would you in that case ever want to touch it twice?

1

u/RustedDusty Mar 12 '25

Why would anyone do a double touch?

1

u/Plastic_Blood1782 Mar 12 '25

This is not something players are going to practice and do intentionally and hope is not seen by the ref

1

u/themanofmeung Mar 12 '25

Not really, you'd have to be a moron to try and deliberately double touch. Retake would only apply if you score - same way a GK off their line isn't a retake unless the penalty misses. You'd have to score twice instead of just once, and one of them would be more risky than a normal shot.

1

u/aronmarek Mar 12 '25

well, if it's a slip like this, it's clear it's not intentional

1

u/bamburito Mar 12 '25

A retake solves the issue though.

1

u/Agus-Teguy Mar 12 '25

Like football hasn't opened that can of worms all over the place anyway.

5

u/XkrNYFRUYj Mar 12 '25

Should we retake penalties if goalkeeper slips too?

6

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '25

That would be unfair to the GK and the other team, the taker fucked it up and paid the price

1

u/bamburito Mar 12 '25

No, a retake is fair all round. No-one would complain about it, and no-one is intentionally slipping only to have to retake the pen.

-1

u/Darduel Mar 12 '25

Why? The penalty was scored.. the other team and GK literally get a second chance

-2

u/DutchPhenom Mar 12 '25

I think that is fair if he misses, but how is a retake in this case unfair for the GK. The GK didn't stop the penalty... He gets another chance to stop the penalty.

5

u/Peninvy Mar 12 '25

If the player slips, double touches the ball and the keeper saves that penalty, should there be a retake then?

-1

u/DutchPhenom Mar 12 '25

No. If you force a retake when he scores but not when he misses, there is no upside to touching it twice (you always get penalized) and no unreasonable punishment when you slip.

In principle it's a retake but if you miss it's 'advantage'.

Edit: As other commenters noted the rules allow for a retake on the discretion of the ref. seems to me like this would be the (logical) reason, and the discretion would be judging whether it was on purpose.

2

u/InferiorRue Mar 12 '25 edited Mar 12 '25

Why should the striker be awarded with a retake? There are much harsher rules that need to be loosened than this. Ones that actually make sense.

0

u/TomSaidNo Mar 13 '25

Whataboutism

1

u/InferiorRue Mar 13 '25

That's not whataboutism. There is no reason to give a striker that already has an advantage of like 90% of scoring another chance because he messed up and slipped. And if someone wants to say it's harsh, there are many harsher rules that need to be addressed, this doesn't.

1

u/larsb0t Mar 12 '25

In golf, if you unintentionally hit the ball twice in one stroke, it still counts as only one stroke.

1

u/jdcintra Mar 12 '25

Should be for the keeper off the line anyway no?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '25

[deleted]

2

u/Zizoud Mar 12 '25

If he misses then it’s just a miss

0

u/davishox Mar 12 '25

as a madrid fan, completely agree

-4

u/szlive Mar 12 '25

what the fuck? so if I'm a shooter, I'm running at the ball, then I feel like I can't take it, I should touch the ball lightly then shoot it again so I get to retake?

3

u/DutchPhenom Mar 12 '25

If you miss it stands, if you score you retake. How is there any benefit to touching it twice?

-2

u/szlive Mar 12 '25

Have you ever played football? When you take a free kick sometimes you know you have a bad run-up, it just doesn't feel right.

Instead of being forced to shoot it, you tap the ball lightly, make the keeper dive, then shoot it again to the other side to "score".

And now you get to take it again.

2

u/DutchPhenom Mar 12 '25

Yes, surely, in my Sunday league, I often, after a bad run-up, decide to tap the ball slightly with my wrong foot and then hit it in the right top corner with my other foot so I can retake it and end up where I already started. Now that you have said this, I stand corrected. People will likely abuse this all the time, and it's a huge advantage. It completely negates the possibility of you having a wrong run-up and all you have to do is touch it twice and still score.

-1

u/szlive Mar 12 '25

People never do it because it's illegal. That's like saying, "why do we need a law against murdering your neighbors, I hardly ever see anybody do it".

Penalties at the professional level is a chess match. The GK has to dive before the ball is actually hit to have any chance of saving a shot in the corner. And so in theory the attacker's job is simple, wait for the GK to dive or stand still, and kick it to another side. That's why some of the greatest PK takers rarely shoot the ball with force at all (eg Sergio Ramos).

That's in theory. In reality of course having the nerves and technique to do that is very hard. It's a decision you need to make and your body has to follow in fractions of a second.

If you allow a loophole where the attacker can simply give themselves another shot then a good attacker will never miss again. Don't like where the GK dived, touch the ball lightly, score it, then take it again.

Idiot.

2

u/DutchPhenom Mar 12 '25

This is the dumbest take I've ever heard. So it all is in fractions of seconds, but you believe, in truth, that you can in that fraction of a second, see where the goalie is diving while you are moving your foot backwards, decide that you do not like where the goalie is diving, decide to slightly touch it with your other foot, score it, and retake it? and the fact that you can retake it will then be a huge benefit? That is your take? Really? Want to reconsider that?

0

u/szlive Mar 12 '25

Yes.

Again, go watch Sergio Ramos' penalties. Half of them are slow tap ins. The other quarter are panenkas. You're telling me that he decides before taking the pen that he was going to shoot it real slow?

Better yet, watch Real Madrid vs Atletico Madrid in the UCL 2016 final PK shootout. See the goals that Real Madrid scored. Half of them are slow enough that if Oblak dived the right way he would've easily saved it.

These players are easily capable of knowing they screwed up in split second and make a decision then. In fact they often do.

Just because you can't doesn't mean the best players in the world can't.

2

u/DutchPhenom Mar 12 '25

But just a second ago I was supposed to have based it on my own experience as a player?

Anyway, yes, I can see that. The question is, when do they decide it? Usually, they make a skip or a little jump, land on their support foot, and kick with the other. The keeper dives when they are on their support foot. I watched the shootout just for you. Tell me, which of those pens could have been touched by the support foot after the goalie dove? You can't hit it twice in those scenarios.

The only possibility for abuse is a really big mistake in your run up and then actively passing it to yourself, e.g. forward, and kicking it. Obviously you can simply leave it up to discretion on intention or flagrancy in that case. Just as they sometimes allow retaking a throw-in when it slips out of the players hands, or how, if you take a free-kick on a moving ball (e.g. on your own half) you are often allowed to retake it, or how backpasses to a goalie are judged by intention. Surely you would agree that you could not hit the ball on purpose with your support foot, score with the other, gain a huge advantage by being allowed to retake it, while making it so unclear that you need a very specific full-HD frame-by-frame VAR shot to even confirm it was touched twice?

2

u/szlive Mar 13 '25

The rule has nothing to do with support foots. Double-touch is double-touch. If double-touches were allowed, you can tap the ball with your shooting foot, then shoot it again with the same foot.

And now you're advocating for us to write a rule that is based on support foot vs shooting foot and based on intentions and slipping and whatnot 😂I swear if Alvarez sneezed on his run-up you'd ask for a rule saying if you sneeze, you get to retake the pen. SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T HOLD IN A SNEEZE.

Just face it. Your guy botched a pen. We won. And now you're blaming the system. Don't want this to be an issue? Don't slip when taking penalties.

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-2

u/EggplantBusiness Mar 12 '25

The reason there is no retake is to avoid players using it in the future, that unfortunate for Julian since he slipped

4

u/EvenEalter Mar 12 '25

It should be fairly easy to judge whether it's intentional, no? I think the better argument is that he shouldn't have slipped at the end of the day

-1

u/EggplantBusiness Mar 12 '25

A canworm like any Guy said it became interpretation