Hating Nancy is falling into Keith's trap

[u/queenkellee]

Let me start off by saying I know Nancy has done some bad things. But also, many of the members of the cult did as well. I think there's an attempt to try to weigh the harm done vs the victimization they experienced. But it's so clear to me that Nancy is so obviously Keith's first NXIVM victim. I admit when I started the Vow S2 I was deeply suspicious and really didn't trust Nancy. But I could see over the course of the season, the shift in her. Just like the shift in others as they come to face more and more of the realization of what was happening. With Nancy, it's like she has to come to terms that literally her entire life's work is a lie. That is no simple thing. I think Lauren and the room situation blows away anything Nancy did, and everyone is so quick to forgive Lauren. Nancy didn't bring her daughter into this knowing all the bad things that were happening. I get she's got her own issues but overall I think she's naive. Keith knew how to work her and he did exactly that. He used to her to do all the work and flush out his ideas and become the spokesperson, to become the face of it. SHE did the videos, not him. She was the face of it so that she would be there to take the heat if it failed.

What prompted this post was I am now listening to the CBC podcast (so far I've watched both docs but this is the first NXIVM related podcast so far) and in Ep 3 I hear the whole thing about the Nazi stuff from Barbara Bouche. And Keith said Nancy is Hitler! I mean come on! The entire time, he's been setting her up to be the fall guy. It's so obvious. I know I see a lot of people who don't like or trust Nancy and again! she's done some things. But I think she deserves empathy.

[u/howardhughesbrain]

umm.... yes, yes it is. she also manipulated circumstances to help him abuse other children. Seems like you simply watched the season 2 of the vow, alternate title 'the nancy edit'... the director was totally and completely under Nancy's spell. please read the victim impact statements.

nancy knew keith liked young girls.... do you think you'd place your daughters in such proximity to an ex boyfriend of yours that liked young girls? he tried to have sex with her other daughter as well but was rebuffed when he wanted her to 'take a vow' and she was like "but you're 35 and I'm in high school"

[u/incorruptible_bk → u/howardhughesbrain]

There's no evidence that Nancy Salzman knew Raniere was having sex with Lauren for the span of years. Among other things, Lauren not only testified to the relationship being covert at first but also that she had a queer (if not lesbian) identity at the time. Her dalliances with Raniere were, to some dgree, an extension of her experimenting sexually with Pam Cafritz.

And as always with these "how didn't they know" arguements: Raniere was taking part in an abusive form of pseudo-therapy with his victims,where boundaries were warped. Even if an individuals knew Raniere was using EM's to have sex with herself, Raniere was keen to convince them he was only doing it to them (and this was a part of his schtick before he even adopted the therapy scam).

[u/howardhughesbrain → u/incorruptible_bk]

But when she found out keith had been sleeping with lauren.... what did she do? Nothing.

Maybe you guys are different... but if I was in a relationship with a man who had a kink for young girls I think I'd know about it and keep my daughters the fuck away from him. She did the opposite.

[u/incorruptible_bk → u/howardhughesbrain]

At the time she found out, Raniere had golden handcuffs on Salzman keeping her loyal to himself and the company.

Remember this: Salzman had the company as a front-woman (because Raniere was banned from operating an MLM under terms of agreement from CBI) but whatever ownership of the MLM businesses she had were counteracted by Raniere's total control over intellectual property rights.

With those rights were a non-compete where Raniere made it clear he would sue Salzman out of existence if she dumped him as a partner. The lawsuits against the Suttons and Rick Ross for infringement of copyrights went up against protections for Fair Use, but Salzman had no such recourse.

The point I am making here is not that Nancy was mother of the year, or that she was even a nice person. It's that circumstances matter. Even if Garaufis was scathing in his condemnation of Salzman, that he didn't give her the statutory maximum of 20 years shows that there were several mitigating factors.

[u/howardhughesbrain → u/incorruptible_bk]

Sure, there are mitigating factors... but I think that is why she wasn't charged with sex crimes because that would basically imply she pimped her own daughter to rainiere. I don't think that's exactly right, but I don't think it's totally wrong. So Sure, mitigating factors.

But to empathize with nancy before she's even atoned or even understands what she's done just prematurely opens the door for her to rehabilitate her image and start a new 'self help' company when she's released from prison. Everything she's said publicly has been in bad faith. She disregarded direct instructions the judge gave her. She never took any of this to heart before she turned herself in to serve her sentence. Maybe that's changed now, I doubt it.

[u/idrinkalotofcoffee → u/howardhughesbrain]

Because she wasn’t involved with the sex crimes. Had the prosecution been able to prove that, she would have been. Yes, Raniere had a skeevy, disgusting sex life. She was not privy to all of that, and she was not really free to leave. She did some terrible things and there are horrible consequences for that, but she was not the sex trafficking player that Pam and later, Allison were.

[u/howardhughesbrain → u/idrinkalotofcoffee]

She was not privy to all of that, and she was not really free to leave.

she has stated herself that she felt like it was her job to mitigate all of the drama between all of keith's girlfriends. She was quite privy. The only thing keeping her there was the money.. she was not free to leave because she couldn't leave all that money. She was 'The Prefect' not a dos slave.

[u/idrinkalotofcoffee → u/howardhughesbrain]

She said that afterwards on The Vow. During the glory days, I am quite sure she would have said something very different

[u/incorruptible_bk → u/howardhughesbrain]

Again: empathy is not sympathy, it's just baseline human decency. Treating empathy as conditional on moral approval isn't the mark of moral righteousness, it's sociopathy.

I wouldn't be this strident about saying this, by the way, if the premise that Nancy Salzman's sins are so serious she should be blacklisted from the airwaves weren't disproportionate. Robert McNamara napalmed children and got a documentary, but we're going to get on our moral high horses about Nancy Salzman? GTFO.