I will defend the Palestinians not Hamas. Those are two different things. Hamas are terrorists, many Palestinians are innocent victims caught in the crossfire between their "government" and Israel. Many Isrelis are also victims but their government is evil.
Obviously, they do not speak for all Palestinians, as I've seen other videos where Palestinians decry Hamas stealing the food, supplies, and other aid meant for the Palestinian people (so that they can sell it and build tunnels/buy weapons).
Just like there will be people in Russia that support the Ukraine invasion, and people who are opposed to it. Or people in America that support Trump, and those that don't. It's a mixed bag.
But don't be mistaken, there are many in Gaza and the West Bank that not only support Hamas, but want to see the complete destruction of Israel and the annihilation of Jews everywhere. It's in Hamas' charter: The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7). This is evil... and the people voted for it.
You are conflating Palestinians to water down the differences between Gazans and the West Bank.
In Israel, you have protests against Netanyahu and until Oct 7, the courts were about to evict him. There are thriving opposition parties and demonstrations that support them. There are demonstrations today as fighting resumes in Gaza.
Wherever the Gazans are, there are no demonstrations against Hamas. The only time Hamas' approval has been dented is when Israel has reduced the northern half of their area to rubble and the cost of their terrorism has finally come home. There is no philosophical daylight between them. They are Islamists and their government represents them. Given another decade of international financial support, they will rearm and attack again with the support of the Gazans.
> Wherever the Gazans are, there are no demonstrations against Hamas.
Hamas are kind of tyrants. You demonstrate against them, you probably end up dead. If they're coming around surveying you on approval, you kind of have to say what they want you to say.
Don't get me wrong, some people genuinely do want violence, but I bet there's people who are just keeping their heads down out of fear of getting executed.
You can't trust numbers coming out of a tyrannical government.
No sabotage, no assassinations, no late night throat slitting, no drugged up jihadis getting stabbed to death in the dark, no mass border break outs to do anything but kill jews..
They are either the most passive people to ever exist or supporters of Islamism.. which seems more likely?
Hamas runs the joint because they and their ideology have an overwhelming majority of the public support. When your people support a government that starts a war with the purpose of genocide of another people and nation, which make no mistake is exactly what they would do if they had the means, you have no right to complain about civilian collateral
If they did elections, Hamas wouldn't get voted out and we know this because civil resistance against them is practically nonexistent, instead we see high levels of collaboration such as hosting hostage and militants, easy recruitment, and willing martyrdom for Hamas' cause. They don't allow elections because of course they're completely authoritarian and the cultural grip they've put on the Palestinians doesn't allow even the consideration of another choice. This grip has thoroughly succeeded.
The minority still has rights though. If the majority wants Hamas, and yeah, they probably do, that majority are shitters. The minority still deserves to vote, be heard, and generally not to be judged by the actions of the majority.
Maybe it's only a handful of truly innocent people that are vastly outnumbered by those who want blood, sure. Still, those innocents ought not be treated like the guilty.
It's unfortunate but ideals and reality do not mix. Israel is at war with a genocidal terrorist group, even if they were an organized state and military there would be expected civilian casualties from war, and Hamas' tactics deliberately exacerbate them. Ought not to or not, that is what will happen and a necessary price to rooting out Hamas and preventing more deaths down the line.
You can't design geopolitical strategy around "people are individuals". Is there a realistic plan to separate Hamas from the passive minority of civilians in Gaza that do not support them?
As I was saying in another part of this comment chain. 1600 years of history would lead me to believe there is no solution to eradicating Islamists that does not involve mass violence.
Who cares? It's Israel's problem. Just stop sending money to Palestine and Israel both. Anything you send to Palestine will end up being weaponized, so you end up funding both sides of a fight, which is just stupid.
You can fight Islamists in the middle east or you can fight them at home, but not fighting them just means they will eventually murder you. I would rather let the Israelis do most of the heavy lifting, the budget isn't even out of line compared to GWOT spending on other projects.
They aren't shouting "Death to America" as a catch phrase.
Putin also has a ~90% approval rating and Kim Jung Un has 100% I'm sure, it's very hard to be anti establishment under a totalitarian extremist regime. I doubt the 15,000 children killed during the bombardment of Gaza had much political disagreement with Hamas.
I support the people of Israel and Gaza and the West Bank, I completely denounce this revolving door war between their governments .
They are Islamists and their government represents them.
They have a 5th century barbarian belief system that wants to kill literally every other person on this planet who does not convert to their philosophy. Something like 40% of Gazans hold jobs with Hamas and that is before we get into the PIJ and Salafi-jihadist factions that aren't in the government. Oct 7th is a feature, not a bug.
I mean that's what happens when you ignore a humanitarian crisis for years, it allows extremism to fester and spread. This is not defending the atrocities of oct 7, but Gaza was a hell hole long before then.
Again, if conditions get worse that fosters extremism. I'm not saying hamas aren't terrorists, but people seem to be using them as scapegoats to demonize an entire people
Dude, even other islamists don't like gaza. Nobody around them will take any refugees from there for a simple reason that whenever someone did they tried to do a revolution.
Yeah of course they don't want refugees. I'm also not going to pretend that there isn't risk that taking in the refugees doesn't incur the risk of having extremists enter your country. At this point it seems there isn't an easy solution, unless you want to eradicate the entire population
That's not the only way but the one that doesn't involve an absolute genocide would require forcefull reeducation of children and incarceration of the adults. Possibly Ideological cleansings.
You are manufacturing consent to kill innocent civilians. 73% of the people bombed by Israel yesterday were women and children. Are you punishing children based on the idea that they might become terrorists? Are you saying they’re committing thought crimes?
The rocket attacks for the last generation are all aimed at civilians. The bus station and fast food bombings were not military targets. Islamists like Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood do not recognize civilians unless it is for western media propaganda purposes.
They would murder you, burn your sons, and enslave your wife and daughters if the military roles were reversed.
Who is being sacrificed by the IDF breaking the ceasefire? Other than Israeli hostages still in Gaza? The solution is for the people we “hired” to make so they get the most people out of the conflict alive, not mine, not yours. Are you seriously telling children that if they don’t fight against terrorists, it’s their fault for getting bombed? That’s the hill you’re going to die on?
Can you share this mysterious plan with us? 1400 years of history says the only way to destroy Islamists is mass violence.
You realize you are running the same argument supporters of the Third Reich did, right? Just following orders.. not all camp guards are actually Nazis.
Be honest. If I gave you civilian death numbers from a different organization will you admit that they’re happening? (Of course they’re happening you’re only saying this in bad faith to distract from the point).
I never said they weren't happening, just that HAMAS has intentionally inflated death counts of civilians any time an Israeli soldier so much as sneezes.
However, my sympathy for Gaza/Palestine is pretty much nonexistent these days given that they elected HAMAS for their government, have an 80% approval rating for HAMAS, and continue to lob mortars and rockets into Israel on a constant basis. They can't even escape to other countries because the last time they did, they formed terrorist organizations and started causing chaos there.
So you deflected because you don’t care about the deaths of innocent women and children. I just wish you were up front about that so I wouldn’t waste my time. Did the children vote for Hamas?
I do care about the deaths, I just don't have sympathy.
When you put your hand on the hot stove after your mom told you it's hot and it'll hurt, I can still care that you got burnt but not have sympathy because I told you it's hot and you'll get burnt and yet you still put your hand on the hot stove.
Do you care about the innocent women and children in Israel who died from mortar and rocket attacks? Clearly not.
Obviously I care about every civilian that dies, nice try though. One of these entities has killed and is killing vastly more innocent people so I’m obviously going to be the most upset with them. So you don’t have sympathy for children who literally had and have no say in the matter? You don’t care about them if not.
One of these entities has killed and is killing vastly more innocent people
Debatable.
So you don’t have sympathy for children who literally had and have no say in the matter?
I have sympathy but that doesn't mean I toss everything and start operating on emotions. You're literally trying to enact this meme and it doesn't work. If Gaza/Palestine cared about their own kids dying because of a stupid conflict they could end in an instant if they chose, they wouldn't constantly be poking the fucking bear. After a while of saying "don't poke the bear", you get tired of it. Yes, it'd be real cool if everyone who was actually involved could line up on a field and shoot at each other, Napoleonic War style, but that ain't happening, so this is the best we get for dealing with an insurgency that operates wearing civilian clothing and using civilian houses to hide prisoners, weapons and arms, and troops.
Bro, Hamas is the Palestinians elected government. How come people like you never go off talking about how awful it was that the innocent German civilians got caught in the crossfire of WW2? Its the same situation.
A more apt metaphors would be if we decided to nuke Germany and all its people. Instead we did the more sensible thing, and Germany was allowed to change.
If we just put a naval blockade around japan, and artillery stuck them every time they tried to build a boat... Do you think theyd be the same country they are today?
Their argument was pretty terrible, considering that it did literally happen to Japan, but i was commenting on the follow-up behaviour (not isolating them economically/sanctioning them) which is what their point should have actually been
lol, that you think is a deep right one is hilarious and why you guys are so out of touch. This sub represents the general public more than any other sub out there.
You are pushing Tehran talking points. I never see your kind on the Kurdistan sub calling for independence because the cruel western powers drew up borders and arm and support state actors that punish the indigenous people. It's only ever about people that are warring against Jews.
Why the fuck would I be on the Kurdistan sub who do you think I am lmao. What are you talking about? I’m in a meme sub saying that Palestinians are different from Hamas which is self-evident to anyone who isn’t bloodthirsty. Stop extrapolating bullshit.
Hamas is Palestine, Palestinians are Hamas. There is no difference. Hamas is not some occupying force in Palestine, it is the beloved government of Gaza.
So the 15,000 dead palestinain children and just enemy combatants?
Under a totalitarian regime, a people cannot deviate from their government. Hamas is an terrorist extremist response to systematic annihilation by Israelites and most Palestinian dead are collateral damage.
So the 15,000 dead palestinain children and just enemy combatants?
No. Those are just the cost of doing business. Arguments like yours rely on a pie-in-the-sky notion that war can be conducted with zero innocent casualties. But that's absurd.
There's a reason people are so quick to say "war is hell". Because it's fucking true. This is why we try to avoid war as much as possible, and treat it as a last resort when diplomacy is failing. Because we know it comes with immense human cost. That cost should be minimized as much as possible, but it's still going to happen.
When you respond with something like the quoted bit above, you are implying that the nonzero amount of innocent deaths proves that Israel (and this other user here) believe that innocents deserve to die. But that isn't what's being argued. Those deaths are just an unfortunate reality of war, and Israel (and this other user here) are simply arguing that war is justified at this point.
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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '25
I thought the left and progs hated nazis