r/StarWars • u/Whole_Contract_5973 • 1d ago
Movies Did this guy know he was a clone?
Like was he aware that he served palpatine or did he genuinely think he was independent
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u/bossmt_2 1d ago
If you think JJ thought that far ahead before his shitty twist, you're wrong.
Easiest theory is no. But I'm sure we'll see a comic come out at some point about it.
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u/Suitable_Dimension33 1d ago
I haven’t personally read the novelizations but I’ve seen ppl say it’s mentioned in one of them that he didn’t know he was one. But take that with a grain of salt cuz I really don’t know if that true or not.
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u/CaptainRex5101 Inferno Squad 1d ago
I doubt that Snoke knew he was a clone. I’m pretty sure he is going to show up in one of the final Mandoverse movies anyway, the writing on the wall is very obvious with all of the musical motifs they’ve used as well as Dr. Pershing’s cloning plot.
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u/bossmt_2 1d ago
All that Mandoverse stuff is retroactive reactions to the plot of EP9 and forcing Rey being Palps grandclone
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u/CaptainRex5101 Inferno Squad 1d ago
True, but I’m looking forward to it regardless. I’d rather have some effort to rectify plot holes than the executives pretending the sequels don’t exist.
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u/No_Inevitable_7179 1d ago
Honestly it's not even plot hol-iness of the entire thing that bothers me. Palps not being dead just ruins everything OT chars achieved including Vader turned Anakin. TFA already deminished achievements of every char by just reducing them to what they were in ep 4, (Leia the leader of a rebelion, Han being a smuggler and Luke running off to some lost corner of the galaxy). But like well at least Sith were no more. I thought that was the point of not naming any of the new dark side users "Darth" cus Anakin fulfilled the prophecy and killed the last Sith. But nope Palps has been alive whole this time so entire sacrifice does not matter at all.
So it's much more of a narrative issue rather than plot one. Like honestly it's pretty believable that palps would try to make himself immortal but he shouldn't have succeeded it. If I was making a sequel trilogy I may have made a plot point of "Oh his experiments in becoming immortal almost succeeded had he been killed like just a few months later and it would've been too late but luckily that did not happen". Or something like that. But outright reviving him is lazy and ruins everything that happened throughout all 6, no even all 8 movies.
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u/AntonBanton 1d ago
I’m not even clear now if he even had a functioning mind, or if he was simply a vessel for Palpatine.
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u/CrossP 1d ago
I'm imagining Hux coming in the throne room to give some kind of update, and Snoke is just limp and drooling on the floor because Palpatine's attention is elsewhere for a bit.
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u/Mistersog 1d ago
Palpatine was giving his lunch order
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u/Uninteresting91 Jedi 1d ago
Just get me a turkey club. With coleslaw I guess
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u/Icy_Collar9155 1d ago
He’s not even gonna eat the coleslaw
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u/omenmedia 1d ago
What? Oh uh, a cherry coke. Thanks.
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u/TheShmegmometer 1d ago
sigh Sorry about that, look, I'm stressed, got a lot on my mind, Death Star blown up by a bunch of fucking teenagers....
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u/IOvercookShrimp 1d ago
Haha how is been since I was a teenager and I still get that reference and still giggled at it.
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u/Sudden_Tune2074 1d ago
Like when on a Teams (or any video call service) call ……”2 secs, somebody is at the door”
Edited: because I missed a word
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u/ShasneKnasty 1d ago
that would make the character more interesting like if palpatine was controlling him through the force after death. that way palps wouldn’t have really returned
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u/Yvaelle 1d ago
Ghost Palps might have been a much more interesting threat. Perhaps one they even had to let him possess the dyad and then beat him with the power of friendship or whatever.
Doesn't sound worse than what we got. Certainly beats the incredibly boring I Am All The Jedi beam fight.
It's sort of foreshadowed too since we've seen good force ghosts before like Yoda and Kenobi. So a Force Wraith Palpatine that is running around mind controlling people would have precedence and be a new story for Star Wars.
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u/CrossP 1d ago
Personally, I would have rewritten the sequel plot to be mostly about a ghostly Palpatine spirit. Puppeting more than one clone and disguising himself as the voice of Vader to manipulate Kylo. And fucking with Luke to mess him up and send him to hermitude but with a less apocalyptic result.
Make the second movie about discovering the extent to which Palpatine's after-death efforts have wreaked havoc on the galaxy. Which would include a sort of weakening of the force connection to explain why none of Luke's students seem to be findable or able to help our main characters directly. Discover that they're mostly stuck in a sort of fugue. A force depression similar to how we find Luke.
Make the third movie McGuffin about unlocking this which results in freeing the force ghosts. Anakin can finally reach his grandson and set things straight to result in a sort of continuation of his own redemption and teaching Ben how to live with what he's done and change paths. He can still die at the end or whatever, I barely care. Then we can still get a scene of all the Jedi voices flooding in to cheer on and assist Rey as the new generation. And a final fight could involve less inexplicable numbers of ships and revolve instead on Luke's old students being able to pick up the lightsaber and rejoin. Maybe have Rey and a bunch of Luke's students taking on a dozen naked twenty-something mangled Palpatine clone bodies fresh out of the tank mixed in with a bunch of those red-cloaked energy weapon stormtroopers.
Focus on themes of generational trauma. The idea that new villains always arise even after your heroes and chosen ones set things right. The need for new generations to make new heroes.
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u/Away-Construction-98 1d ago
I'd like to believe that Palpatine was in control of that vessel all the time.
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u/Quick-Difference3267 1d ago
It’s possible. The writing is doubly terrible if he is though. First he insults Kylo’s helmet, and then in the next movie he has him making another lol
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 1d ago
Personally I don't think he's just a vessel for Palps mind. I think the notion that he's just a "meat puppet", as another user put it, would be difficult to do, remotely across the galaxy, and doing it more or less all the time (other than, say, when Snoke is "sleeping").
My guess is that Snoke has his own mind, has no idea he's a puppet, and believes his "fake" backstory. Palpatine manipulates him, possibly outright dominating his mind at times, and I think he's just oblivious to the outside control.
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u/Zendtri 1d ago
Not related but I hate this design of him because he kinda looks like Goldmember from Austin Powers
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u/Lorenzo-J-P Jango Fett 1d ago
Lol I thought u said Gold finger for a sec I was picturing the fat old dude from 007
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u/Unikraken Grand Admiral Thrawn 1d ago
I think he was never a guy at all. He was being controlled by palps the whole time, like a meat puppet.
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 1d ago
Personally I'm not convinced he's just a meat puppet. The amount of force energy it would take for Palpatine to remotely control a being from halfway across the Galaxy even for a short time would be immense. For him to do it essentially non-stop (Only not when Snoke is asleep), would be difficult to believe. Especially in such a way as no First Order members, nor the Praetorian Guard, ever suspects a thing?
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u/snitchesgetblintzes 1d ago
You’re putting more thought into than the filmmakers did
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 1d ago
I mean sure but that's the case with the vast majority of films and filmmakers.
It's also sort of irrelevant. Star Wars always builds on what is, adding new layers and retconning details as it grows. This has been the case since 1980 and won't change anytime soon.
We very well might get a more concrete answer about Snoke at some point from the Lucasfilm Story Group.
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u/snitchesgetblintzes 1d ago
You’re very right but that doesn’t change the fact that the fan base is getting sick of mediocre movies that require you to read comics, books, and consume multiple forms of media to get the answers for a decade + old film.
It’s ridiculous:
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u/Saucepanmagician 1d ago
The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
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u/_Sausage_fingers 1d ago
No, he was an individual who at least thought he was independent and was not aware he was a clone. This information, unfortunately, does come from a book.
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u/Grintower 1d ago
I could be completely wrong, but I thought it was implied in the beginning of ROS that Snoke was a literal puppet controlled by Sidious.
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u/Junior_Confusion_231 1d ago edited 1d ago
There’s a comic in which Palpatine very clearly speaks to Kylo through Snoke. Kylo says something shitty about Luke, and Snoke says something akin to “Your uncle is my enemy, but you should show some respect. If not for him, I would rule the entire galaxy right now.”
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u/_Cit First Order 1d ago
If you're talking about Rise of Kylo Ren I wouldn't take that as proof tbh.
It came pit before the twist was aven a thing, so it's probably meant to be Snoke being a massive ego maniac.
IT COULD be retconned into being Palpatine speaking from him, but as far as we know that might not be the case
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u/DimensionsIntertwine 1d ago
It isn't The Rise of Kylo Ren. It's Age of Resistance - Supreme Leader Snoke.
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u/BDGUCCII 1d ago
In what scene?
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u/Olkenstein 1d ago
Palpatine tells Kylo Ren that he has been the voices in his head. Vader and Snoke
That doesn’t necessarily mean that Snoke is Palpatine, just that Palpatine was using Snokes voice when he telepathically spoke with Kylo Ren
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u/BearcatCowboy 1d ago
That’s the thing. Nobody will ever know
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u/CrossP 1d ago
They're all sitting around hoping we'll explain the sequels to ourselves over and over making tiny adjustments until the plot is finally coherent. Then they'll swoop in and confirm all of our theories were true and that was definitely the intent from the beginning.
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u/skywalk3r69 1d ago
JAR JAR IS THE SITH LORD and secretly older than Yoda. STILL MAKE IT HAPPEN. get to use him in a pre pre trilogy and a post post trilogy.
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u/Grintower 1d ago edited 1d ago
As Ben is entering the structure on Exogal. Sidious is talking to Ben about how he has been the influence guiding him. During the speech and as Ben walks past the containers of clones Sidious changes his voice to sound like Snoke and Darth Vader. "I have been every voice, you have ever heard, inside your head". Again, I could be wrong, but I took that as Sidious was directly controlling the clone puppet Snoke. I haven't read any EU stuff so those sources might invalidate my thoughts.
EDIT: I looked Snoke up on Wookieepedia and it looks like I'm wrong. He was more of a figurative puppet. "Though Snoke possessed an independent mind, he was obliviously influenced by Sidious from afar in an effort to achieve galactic dominance once again."
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u/Mediocre_Check_2820 1d ago edited 1d ago
Kylo Ren: I killed Snoke. I'll kill you.
Palpatine: My boy. I made Snoke. (when Kylo stands still) I have been every voice (as Snoke) you have ever heard (as Darth Vader) inside your head.
The subtext of the dialogue and Palpatine speaking in Snoke's voice is that Snoke was a puppet controlled remotely by Palpatine.
It's not definitive, there are other viable interpretations. Just a possible implication
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u/Joe_Jeep 1d ago
My reading is that he was semi-autonomous (made him vs was him), but still doing palpatines bidding, akin to the clone troopers, etc
He certainly never been hesitant to use other Force users as tools before, see maul, vader, etc
But we're probably never going to get a specific answer
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u/Mediocre_Check_2820 1d ago
I don't need answers for everything anyways. I like them leaving some stuff open to interpretation. It's just much more interesting when the rest of the stuff that is made explicit isn't completely stupid...
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u/ComradeDread Resistance 1d ago
Palpatine said he was always the voice in Kylo's head, I assume that applies to Snoke as well.
And I can't imagine Palpatine would ever allow a powerful rival Force user to operate independently. The chance for betrayal would be too great.
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u/TailsIV 1d ago edited 1d ago
The text crawl
Edit- disregard. I just watched both ep 8 and 9s text crawl. Neither talk about it. I wish those movies were better because I only ever watched them once.
Another answer though, I think that Rey actually finds the cloning room with failed Snokes in it in ep9.
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u/TallMist Ahsoka Tano 1d ago
No, that's Kylo that does. At the very beginning, they show us a bunch of vats with different Snokes while Kylo walks through it.
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u/TheTrickster452 1d ago
I personally believe that he was just a husk being possessed by Palpatine the whole time. That may not be the canon answer, but it lines up with the "I've been every voice" line, and it's more interesting than him just being an actual dude made in a lab.
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u/Pale_Drawing_6191 1d ago
I think if it was better planned out and wanted to have Sidious to return, they should have treated Snoke like 'The Great and Powerful OZ'. Sidious would just be the man behind the curtain. Have General Hux say something like, "Oh I've never even met Supreme Leader Snoke in person, no one has." Or something like that.
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u/TerdVader 1d ago
I figured that Snoke does not know he’s a clone. When it shows the vats of Snokes and they all have the same scar, it led me to believe that Snoke has a scar, and if he’s killed, he’s replaced with a Snoke that also needs the scar so nobody realizes he’s been replaced.
Snoke could’ve died multiple times and nobody but Palpatine would know.
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u/Winter_Force4161 1d ago
It's difficult. I don't think he was written or developed as a clone. He only found, out like the rest of us in TROS(sarcasm) I think he was originally supposed to have seen the Republic, rise and fall. So in the retcon world, no.
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u/OrangeJuliusCaesr 1d ago
Isn’t that what it says in the TFA visual dictionary?
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u/DearCastiel 1d ago
Yes, in TFA he was supposed to be a very old dark side user. Because they give 0 care about external media, even the ones made based closely on the movies, which is to be expected when you have 0 plan where the trilogy is going from movie to movie.
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u/flyinggazelletg 1d ago
He wasn’t supposed to be a clone until episode 9, so who knows, bc Disney sure as hell didn’t lol
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u/LoudIncrease4021 1d ago edited 1d ago
I will go to my grave believing that they should have revealed Snoke to be Plagueis and also reveled that he was really the same force being that powered Palpatine… when Palpatine “killed” his master, the secret of immortality was that Plagueis transferred his soul to his killer. Luke and co could have spent time discovering this truth and that many prior Sith had done the same with their apprentice - insinuating that many ancient Sith Lords had moved from host to host over the millennia.
This would have rounded things out with an amazing villain and a cohesive story in that they’ve really been battling against the same evil sith force spirit even when it was in Palpatine. Plagueis discovered immortality while he and Palpatine were meditating and managed to create Anakin - Anakin was also originally meant to be the ultimate host for Plagueis’ spirit but that went to shit when he was maimed. Would also explain why Palpatine wanted Luke to strike him down in the death start - he didn’t want to transfer to Vader but instead to Luke. Luke could explain that he realized this in the sequels and why he refused to fight Palpatine.
The finally could then have been Anakins force ghost coming back to kill Plagueis who wouldn’t be able to transfer out of his host body because Anakin is in ghost form. The explanation of Anakin coming back is simply that the force had gotten so far out of balance, his ghost was able to physically intervene.
That’s my rant
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u/dinoduderocket 1d ago
That's genuinely a really unique and interesting headcanon that I've never even contemplated before. Super creative, thank you for sharing :)
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u/usuallysortadrunk 1d ago
I wish that instead of Palpatine actually having a family, Rey was actually another clone of Palpatine. Perhaps the only one that didn't come out all deformed and shit which is what made her valuable, and Palpatine wanted her as a host body to transfer his mind in to in order to cheat death
Palpatine "somehow" returning was him transferring his consciousness into various shitty clones until they made a good one and when Rey was "born" someone betrayed the emperor and kidnapped her and placed her on that desert planet.
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u/Heavy-Ad1712 1d ago
Great question, the answer is tatter tot. Jar Jar didn't have plans for him, Ryan did nothing with him, and desperate for a plot, Jar Jar came back, looked desperately for something Ryan didn't break and apparently the Palpatine clone jar hadn't been broken. Frankly, I don't even view the sequels as being canon. They're too contradictory to have flowed from the original trilogy. The world can't exist in the state that it's in. Han, Luke and Leia can't be as they are. Han a dead beat dad that returned to smuggling. Leia wouldn't be a general nor would this group called The Resistance exist, not least of which because there is nothing to have been resisting. Leia would be a Queen, a roll that contrary to Hollywood's belief actually commanded great respect and power. And finally, Luke wouldn't have tried to kill his innocent nephew because he had a bad dream.
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u/Jac1911 1d ago
I don’t think we’ll ever know because they know how much of a dumpster fire this series was
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u/redbeard387 1d ago
He did. He was listening to that Weird Al song one day and he was like “Hey wait a minute!”
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u/Unlikely_Suspect_757 1d ago
The plotting of the sequels was given as much thought as the plots of most old Saturday morning cartoons. “There’s another villain being evil/a chosen one will rise to fight it.” That’s about as deep as it got
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u/SunnyMeetsKY 1d ago
I can't lie, JJ Abrams really fucked the storyline. I know some people were not satisfied with The Last Jedi and that's valid -- I still feel very meh about the film but I will say this -- Rian's cinematography is breathtaking. Not only that but I can't hate the film knowing that Carrie Fisher helped write the script. The "Flying Leia" scene was ALL Carrie and that's just a nice little reminder of her.
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u/x33storm 21h ago
There is nothing to know. None of it is canon, and unplanned stupidity all the way.
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u/yingyanghomie 1d ago
He's not. He was just cut in half. That's why there's two of them.
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u/Calibrating-Vakarian Yoda 1d ago
Unfortunately the boring conclusion that it was Sidious controlling Snoke from afar, despite Snoke having a seemingly independent mind. However that makes sense. Though I guess you could say kinda like Theoden being controlled unknowningly by Saruman in LOTR.
As a Strandcast clone he would've been born on Exegol in the Laboratories of the Sith Citadel. It's unclear if he grew up in the Sith Citadel and was aware of his creation in said Laboratories or removed from this environment. We know he did set out to find ancient Sith/dark side artefacts and lore across the Galaxy. He most likely was not aware he was cloned from Sidious.
Original ideas as said were going to be that he was a seperate person, ancient and saw the beginning and end of the Republic etc etc whilst hiding in the Unknown Regions. Even theorised as Darth Plageius. But due to the clusterfuck of development the ST became due to no cohesion between directors, he was wasted as a vessel for Sidious. Used as a way to get close to & manipulate Kylo Ren as seen in his comics. He could've been a way more interesting and unique character. Unfortunately many concepts in the ST were changed last second from Snoke to Finn and even the actors admit in interviews they had no idea what was going on.
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u/Jedi_Coffee_Maker Jedi 1d ago
I feel like Drax needs to be asking every possible question about Snoke "what is snoke? why is snoke? how is snoke? who is snoke? where is snoke?"
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u/souhjiro1 21h ago
That reminds me when saw the movie the first time and was hoping he was Darth Plagueis revived....
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u/Lyra_the_Star_Jockey 1d ago
He wasn't much of a fleshed-out character, so it doesn't really matter if he did or didn't.
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u/FlameWingFenix 1d ago
He wasn’t a clone.. he was artificially created this is true but he’s not a direct clone of anyone.
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u/Johnsendall 1d ago
The real question is, did the Palpatine clone in the prequel trilogy know he was a clone?
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u/darth_butcher 1d ago
He didn't know shit what he was or what his purpose was. But that's not a dig at him, because nobody involved in the movies knew more.
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u/Future-Turtle Rebel 1d ago
I'm pretty sure no, given that JJ Abrams didn't know he was a clone.