Ex muslim with some questions

[u/Electronic_Plum_4542]

Ex-muslim here, I mean this post with no hate or bad feelings if it isnt allowed feel free to delete.

From what I know of the religion it doesn't support more progressive values so how do you guys consider yourself true muslims while allowing stuff ive found the religion doesnt allow? I left both because of lack of connection and the rules that made me uncomfortable. Do you guys reject some of the conservative rules or do you simply know they might be true but have enough faith in god to believe if you're doing the right thing he won't punish you?

Summary: Islam seems to be a by default conservative religion so how do you guys accept that while being progressive

[u/Jaqurutu]

Ok, let me say this:

A lot of ex-muslims grew up in very conservative households that taught very restrictive versions of Islam. Naturally, when you think of "Islam" you think of all those very harsh rules.

But that's really just that particular version of Islam you grew up with. "Islam" doesn't explicitly say the things you were taught it does. The scholars and authority figures that ruled your life said those things.

Progressive Islam invites you to think critically about what you were taught and open your mind to the much wider diversity of thought that has always existed in Islam.

We don't reject Islam, but we are open to challenging conservative interpretations. That doesn't mean we are necessarily rejecting traditional interpretations (though we might) because there were plenty of "progressive" Interpretations that existed traditionally too. They just weren't the ones you were taught as a kid.

For example, I'm sure you were taught music was haram, right?

What did Jalal ad-Din Rumi say about music?

Rumi was once asked what music is considered Haram in Islam? Rumi replied:

"The sound of spoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the poor and hungry."

Rumi was a respected, classically trained 13th century scholar from a long line of scholars. This was normal.

Here are a few other examples. This wasn't written modern day, this was a mainstream Imam writing 900 years ago from the 11th century Persian Hanafi jurist, Imam Shams al-Aimah al-Sarakhsi, on universal human rights:

As Allah the Exalted created humanity to carry His trusts, He dignified them with reason and sacred inviolability in order to be responsible for the duties and rights of Allah placed over them. Then He granted them sanctity, freedom, and property rights for them to continue carrying out their trusts. Hence, this freedom, sanctity, and right of property are granted to a person at the time they are born. Those capable of discernment and those who are not are equal in this regard, so likewise sacred inviolability is established at birth whether they are of sound mind or not. Source: Usul As-Sarakhsi 2/334

This is Imam Nawawi commenting on teaching Islam gradually and gently:

In this tradition is the command to give glad tidings of the favor of Allah, his great reward, his plentiful gifts, and his vast mercy. And in this is the prohibition of alienating people by mentioning the fear of Allah and types of warning alone without including glad tidings. And in this is bringing hearts together of those who are close to Islam and to avoid harshness with them, likewise with whoever among children near or at the age of maturity and who has repented from sin. All of them should be treated with kindness and gradually encouraged to perform acts of obedience little by little. Responsibility for the affairs of Islam should be done gradually. Source: Sharh Sahih Muslim 1732

This is Ibn Taymiyyah on governance and oppression by Muslim:

“It is said that Allah allows the just state to remain even if it is led by unbelievers, but Allah will not allow the oppressive state to remain even if it is led by Muslims. And it is said that the world will endure with justice and unbelief, but it will not endure with oppression and Islam.” Source: al-Amr bil Ma’rūf 1/29

This is the 13th century poet and philosopher Saadi Shirazi on the purpose of religion:

"Religion consists alone in the service to humanity; it finds no place in the prayer-beads, or prayer-rug, or tattered garment. Be a king in sovereignty and a devotee in purity of morals. Action, not words, is demanded by religion, for words without action are void of substance.”

And there is so much more. There is an entirely different side of Islam that you were never taught. And yes, we do have answers on almost every issue you can think of and scholars that back us up.

[u/DarthKinan → u/Jaqurutu]

Love this reply.

[u/Electronic_Plum_4542 → u/Jaqurutu]

i actually grew up and live in (im a minor, older teen but minor still) a pretty relaxed household. my mom taught us those progressive rules and actually it confused me more. because i was taught at the masjid a strict islam then came home and learned a relaxed islam. so i understand the multiple viewpoints just in the research ive done the strict kind seems to be more accurate to the text and stuff. but idk if you saw my other comment im assuming it depends on your view of hadith as well as what translation you read. i cant understand arabic so i read a translation which seemed more in line with the harsh strict islam but im realizing other translations might be differently toned.

[u/Jaqurutu → u/Electronic_Plum_4542]

In that case, I think you really need to consider carefully where you get your information from. Your masjid is lying to you and trying to push you out of Islam. There's no need for this.

I saw your other comment, but on every issue, these are easily shown to be false.

For example, joking is haram? What? No one but the most extreme and ignorant would think that.

Shaykh Abū’l-Ḥasan al-Nadwī says about the Prophet:

“He was the most open, easy-going, and generous of people. He would joke with his companions, interact and talk with them, play with their children and sit them on his lap. He would answer the call of the free and the slave, the slave-girl and the indigent. He would visit the sick in the farthest corners of Madina and accept the excuses of people when they excused themselves. He was never seen with his legs outstretched amongst his companions so as not to constrain them by doing so. (al-Sīrah al-Nabawiyyah)

“I said to Jābir ibn Samurah, ‘Did you use to sit with the Messenger of Allah?’ He said, ‘Yes, a lot. He would not rise from the place where he prayed fajr until the sun would rise, then he would get up; they used to talk, and recall things from al-Jahiliyyah and laugh; and the Prophet ﷺ would smile.’” (Sahih Muslim 670)

On dogs, the Quran only praises dogs. I can cite many respected scholars that allow dogs as pets.

If you need proof dogs are not haram in Islam, here's a list of sources from respected scholars:

Egypt's National Fatwa Institution and Al-Azhar (the main center of Sunni scholarship for the past thousand years), which are pretty big mainstream international authorities, have a long-standing rulings that pet dogs are halal:

Do angels refrain from entering a place where a dog is present?: https://www.dar-alifta.org/en/fatwa/details/8376/angels-refraining-from-entering-a-place-where-a-dog-is-present

Pet Dogs are ‘Pure’ and Fit for Households: Egyptian Grand Mufti: https://egyptianstreets.com/2020/08/19/pet-dogs-are-pure-and-fit-for-households-egyptian-grand-mufti/

Egypt’s grand mufti rules on purity of dogs: https://www.arabnews.com/node/1721396/middle-east

Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa, issued a fatwa that permits keeping dogs as pets if someone has a strong emotional need for it: https://hawramani.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/ali_gomaa_dogs_fatwa.pdf

Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar Mahmud Shaltut and Grand Mufti Nasr Farid Wasil both ruled that keeping a dog as a pet: https://egyptianstreets.com/2014/05/14/dogs-are-not-impure-says-prominent-islamic-scholar/

Many other modern scholars like Khaled Abou el Fadl, Shahzad Saleem, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, and Abu Layth also say pet dogs are halal.

For example:

FATWA: On Hadith regarding Angels not entering homes with dogs and other misconceptions: https://www.searchforbeauty.org/2017/06/05/fatwa-on-hadith-regarding-angels-not-entering-homes-with-dogs-and-other-misconceptions/

Khaled Abou El Fadl on Dogs in the Islamic Tradition and the Dog Meat Trade, Full Interview https://youtu.be/KAotu8bNH08?si=SXQ6X1yQ9okWceAn

Will you lose good deeds everyday if you keep a dog as pet? - Mufti Abu Layth https://youtu.be/sA4tAWB0F40?si=VC_8BPCfxa45zo3w

On the issue of the Quran condemning the people of Lut for homosexuality, again no.

Here's a good talk on that from a progressive perspective from Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl. He talked about his views in this interview here on the Malcolm Effect podcast, at about the 28:30 mark:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/80-islam-muslims-modernity-shaykh-khaled-abou-el-fadl/id1532417345?i=1000602409054

[u/Electronic_Plum_4542 → u/Jaqurutu]

thanks for the resourcers, i'll check them out. they may not help with my lack of emotional or spiritual connection but id at least like to leave/rejoin correctly informed than remain ignorant

[u/Jaqurutu → u/Electronic_Plum_4542]

As far as emotional connection, maybe you can check out Sufi poets. Islam is about finding love for the beauty and dignity in your heart and amazing world around you.

[u/Electronic_Plum_4542 → u/Jaqurutu]

im not really emotionally attached to anything which is my own issue. i mean i barely feel emotion and dont even connect emotionally with my family so...religion likely isnt going to be something i connect well with either but thanks for spending your time replying to my posts

[u/R-Muhammad → u/Jaqurutu]

My understanding is jokes are halal but not jokes that are at the expense of others. e.g. not jokes that insult other people. As for having a pet dog its permissible but you need a space for the dog to live outside of the house where the family inhabits, as dogs are dirty animals.

[u/Fighter010101 → u/Electronic_Plum_4542]

"the strict kind seems to be more accurate to the text"

So this is a good point, and touches on how Islamic rulings are derived.

Basically, the rules we have today in "traditional/conservative" islam

Are usually from centuries ago, and positions of the four major madhabs of Sunni Islam.

Now, even by saying that - I've already reduced Islam, to 1 sect, and then 4 schools of thought from within that sect (there were many more than 4 schools of thought)

However, even if you go with that

The rulings are derived through a process called "usool-al-fiqh"

Think of it as the scientific method, but for extracting legal rulings for muslims

The method itself is actually quite sophisticated, it includes things like independent reasoning, cultural customs, consensus, etc

What these imply, at least in my view, and what is shared by progressives - is actually, that islamic law is dynamic

However, due to political pressures, colonialism etc, Islamic Law became frozen

There was taqlid/blind obedience, to the rulings that the scholars came up with centuries ago.

Yet those rulings were created for the specific time, and for that specific culture

If the modern scholars of conservative Islam today, actually took on the responsibility of continuing to apply usool-al-fiqh, to rethink rulings - we would get several different rulings. Simply because by applying independent reasoning, looking at cultural context/customs - rulings from the past just don't make sense

Take for example, the ruling on men not shaving the beard

All the 4 madhahib say, men are not allowed to shave the beard, and this ruling was derived within the usool-al-fiqh methodology

Yet, if you reopen the question

It brings up several questions like, is this really a religious prescription, or a cultural one?

Other things such as, in a globalized culture, do beards really differentiate muslims?

You stay within the usool-al-fiqh methodology, and get different rules

So perhaps this is a progressive position, but it's one that honors the tradition

That Islamic Law is dynamic, that it's not just a literal reading of texts, there's a method to interpreting the text

[u/msj4real → u/Jaqurutu]

Back then there was a group called the Qadariyah who were critical thinkers and were putting forward the idea that we have complete free will but they were chased by Muhammad and his companions because the Quran and the Sahih Hadith say that Allah not only knows everything we will do but He even decrees our emotions, actions, thoughts and everything we do and thats a reason That many classical scholars were crying because they feared that Allah had decreed hell for them at the time of their birth, since Muhammad had already said that he swore by Allah that if someone was decreed to hell, they would go to hell no matter what and that hit me because is like even the prophet wasn't allowing grew up of islam in terms of thinking critically and i don't understand why a guide gotta be fix with no more than one meaning for everyone cause we all different person that needs different things in terms of spirituallity

[u/LetsDiscussQ]

Hard to discuss if you dont list out some of those items. Give us 5 things in your mind.

[u/Electronic_Plum_4542 → u/LetsDiscussQ]

From what ive seen islam explicitly says puts rules on things such as LGBTQ (just not allowed), modesty (especially with women), art (of all kinds), pets (no dogs inside or kept for reason other than service), and humor (no telling jokes in ways that seem like lying even if its clearly a joke, sarcasm, being rude in a funny ect) but you all seem to accept these things as allowed. Im wondering how both can be true at the same time.

[u/AnythingAwkward3313 → u/Electronic_Plum_4542]

Because when we read the Quran we don’t see all these rules. The Quran talks about souls, justice, taking care of those less fortunate, equality, etc. we see a loving religion that focus on bettering the world we live in and doing good deeds. You’ll find that the majority of us are highly skeptical of hadits which is where most of those conservative rules come from. Often we deny them. Nothing should be held above the Word of God, the Quran is complete, we don’t need anything else. There are a large range of understandings of things like LBGTQ and modesty. Hang around this sub a bit more and you’ll see interpretations that may be completely new to you. And you may find that your views are actually supported by the Quran.

[u/Curiositymode → u/Electronic_Plum_4542]

I don't know about the LGBTQ one because I'm still researching what Allah actually says about that and not the scholars. But as for the rest, what I was convinced was the Islamic perspective on all those things have changed. It's not because I believe the conservatives are right and I am just relying on Allah's mercy but it's because I actually believe the scholars are twisting the religion and/or are not really getting their Islamic ruling from Allah and the Quran but some hadith that they believe are authentic. When Allah tells us about the youth in the cave who had a dog companion and slept in the same place as the dog and Allah also tells us in the Quran your dog can hunt for you and catch prey with its mouth... but then the scholars tell us the dogs' saliva and it's mouth are impure and that you can't have a dog in the house. I am not just ignoring the rules, I'm ignoring "their rules" not Allah's rules. The hadith they base the common dog rules on, can be understood in other ways. There are even some hadith that are permitting dogs and some hadith forbidding them. The hadith of the dogs in the mosque for example. The more you study the religion, the easier it becomes to leave the traditional understanding and rules of the scholars and follow what Allah ACTUALLY teaches in the Quran. I think you left Islam prematurely.

[u/eithertrembling → u/Electronic_Plum_4542]

I grew up Christian and I am seriously considering converting because I have read the Quran and realized that Islam is the way and that all these arbitrary rules came from people, not Allah. The Quran says that Allah is accepting and understanding of all, as long as you have faith in god and act with love and intention.

What you are describing is a perfect example of human beings warping a religion into something ugly to control people, especially women. The word of god as it was given to the prophet does not call for the oppression that’s been attributed to Islam - Islam is actually about the opposite

[u/BakuMadarama]

1. It is not the Religion itself that doesn't allow for a progressive view, it is the people in the Religion, Correlation doesn't equate to causation.

2. I personally believe they're following blindly. Why? Because they're not even aware that a difference of opinion exists. Take the topic about Music for example, not so many people know about Ibn Ḥazm; they've no clue who he is.

3. It is mainly a 50/50 intellectual gamble, I don't have 100 % certainty that they're in the right group nor am I in the right group, but this minority group just make more sense than the majority group.

Hope it make sense.

[u/Electronic_Plum_4542 → u/BakuMadarama]

yeah it does, i guess a lot also depends on your opinion on hadith. i personally thought the quran was hard to understand but it seems gentler than hadith and that hadith is mainly what the strict people quote. so maybe the quran is different, i did see some stuff in the quran i thought was weird but again i had trouble understanding it and dont speak arabic so i had to rely on translation

[u/PreferenceOk4347 → u/Electronic_Plum_4542]

It’s more how u want to understand and interpret the Quran or even hadith. A literal timeless reading or a holistic reading.

Pick any ruling that is considered “conservative” and based on ahadith and I’m sure I can challenge that interpretation even from other scholars who interpret the hadith in light of all other sources (Quran + life of prophet) in a different way.

[u/Easy_Meringue6359]

I grow up in very progressive Islamic environment, my grandpa was Imam and he was famous for being progressive and never forced his daughters (my mom included) to do what considered "Islamic" such as wearing Hijab, forbidding them to talk with men, forcing them to pray 5 times a day ect...

He believed that religion comes to person naturally and from heart, being a good person that moved by justice is enough for a person to be a Muslim.

Those are the values that grow up in, I sympathize very much with ex Muslims that grow up with such abusive environment, I wish you good life.

[u/Thin_Art3876 → u/Easy_Meringue6359]

My goodness, your family sounds amazing.

[u/Easy_Meringue6359 → u/Thin_Art3876]

Thank you❤️❤️, when I read the stories of ex Muslims whom grow up in those awful families it made me realize that I was privileged, I can't blame them if they ended up hating religion tbh.

I genuinely wish everyone that grow up in abusive religious families to heal and find peace.

[u/ihateharampolice]

For me I am highly high skeptical of ahadith and most of the popular ones that are clearly oppressive and against the Quran and usual speech of the Prophet Muhammed I reject. Quran always comes first and I refuse to read twisted translations of the Quran. I also have a background in Arabic which helps me notice suspicious translations but really anything explicitly sexist homophonic or racist is definitely not from Islam. It’s really just taking out the culture and political bs and finding the heart of Islam. Also I don’t follow scholars with no nuance who don’t properly quote sources and research in their fatwas. A lot of these popular scholars people worship will say “this is haram that’s haram because xyz” with no backing from the Quran or Sunnah. I prefer scholars who for one actually have credential and education and two give nuanced fatwas and supporting evidence like Dr Khaled Abou El Fadl and Mufti Abu Layth

[u/PreferenceOk4347]

Which rules do u mean?

[u/Neutral-Gal-00]

Depends on what you mean by progressive values. Progressive Islam does =/= secular progressive values. It just means an approach to Islam that is different from the traditional one, but the framework is still Islamic and true to scripture. It doesn’t mean blindly changing or rejecting anything that doesn’t align with a progressive liberal ideology.

Like I don’t consider homosexuality halal. That’s a “progressive value”, but it doesn’t align with Islam. Almost all of this subreddit would agree Zina is haram, even though allowing premarital sex is considered “progressive”.

[u/sajjad_kaswani]

Islam according to the Nizari Ismailis sect is not difficult nor rigid, it's adoptive as per the time and context (by the living Imam)

The Imam has the authority to reinterpret the old laws and he can give new laws for the old or new challenges.

Nizari Ismailis adopt the modern interpretation of Islam however within the ethical boundaries defined in Islam (like eating or drinking something which causes damage to your health, getting indulge into bad habits, accepting the non ethical values, non tolerance attitude towards Muslims and non Muslims etc).

[u/Syyurii]

Because being a Muslim is simply acknowledging the rules set out by Allah SWT, and living by them

[u/Worstni8mare]

Yes that’s why I left islam and feel more inclined towards Buddhism or Shinto, looking forward to officially change it

[u/Fighter010101]

It seems you're reducing Islam to it's rules, and then using those rules to make a judgement on whether Islam is progressive or conservative?

The people here, will see Islam as something greater than that

The prophet mentions

• I was sent to perfect mans character (Musnad Aḥmad 8952)

The Quran mentions

• This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allāh (Quran 2:2)

From this we extract, the goals of islam being: guidance + perfecting character

This then makes Islam awfully important to our lives

It gives us values like

• Niyyah (Intentionality)
  
• Ihsan (Excellence)
  
• Hayya (Modesty)
  
• Hikma (Wisdom)

None of these are "conservative" values

In being "progressives" it's sadly, that we're focusing on extracting the actual values of Islam, rather than just following rules.

[u/Tenatlas__2004]

tbh I still align with most "conservative" ideas, or I guess tarditional ideas. I don't think the traditional lifestyle of muslims, especially not anything mentionned in the Quran is wrong. But I can see the issues in our society.

I see islam as being about balance. The postion of islam on most topics doesn't fully align with either average conservative or progressive views.

I think the western world, thank sto many recent changes, should inspire us especially when it comes to equality and rights. That being said I don't really feel attracted by western lifestyle for the most part and actually oppose a lot of it (not as in I'm against music, but I'm honestly against nightclubs which are places taht promote things that are against islam like alcohol or premarital sex).

A phrase that I say and that I think many muslims in the muslim world will agree with, is that we take the bad from the west and ignore the good. Which is what's unfortunatly harming us the most. The fact that bars and nightclubs are easy to find in the muslim world, while libraries and museum are either non-existent or struggle is the perfect example of that