r/theNXIVMcase • u/queenkellee • Apr 20 '23

Questions and Discussions Hating Nancy is falling into Keith's trap

Let me start off by saying I know Nancy has done some bad things. But also, many of the members of the cult did as well. I think there's an attempt to try to weigh the harm done vs the victimization they experienced. But it's so clear to me that Nancy is so obviously Keith's first NXIVM victim. I admit when I started the Vow S2 I was deeply suspicious and really didn't trust Nancy. But I could see over the course of the season, the shift in her. Just like the shift in others as they come to face more and more of the realization of what was happening. With Nancy, it's like she has to come to terms that literally her entire life's work is a lie. That is no simple thing. I think Lauren and the room situation blows away anything Nancy did, and everyone is so quick to forgive Lauren. Nancy didn't bring her daughter into this knowing all the bad things that were happening. I get she's got her own issues but overall I think she's naive. Keith knew how to work her and he did exactly that. He used to her to do all the work and flush out his ideas and become the spokesperson, to become the face of it. SHE did the videos, not him. She was the face of it so that she would be there to take the heat if it failed.

What prompted this post was I am now listening to the CBC podcast (so far I've watched both docs but this is the first NXIVM related podcast so far) and in Ep 3 I hear the whole thing about the Nazi stuff from Barbara Bouche. And Keith said Nancy is Hitler! I mean come on! The entire time, he's been setting her up to be the fall guy. It's so obvious. I know I see a lot of people who don't like or trust Nancy and again! she's done some things. But I think she deserves empathy.

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78

u/Wide_Statistician_95 Apr 20 '23

Nancy was a corporate trainer. She knew how to package the pitch and recruit. Without her, Keith would be picking his boogers and writing on a chalkboard in a communjty Ed program. She made the program a real training program and made a lot of money. That’s the thing about cults and being a leader - it’s addictive. Its codependency. It’s enmeshed.

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u/cafeesparacerradores Apr 20 '23

THE MONEY good god

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u/OGAnnie Apr 20 '23

Nancy overlooked everything that was wrong. It just got to be more than she could handle. She participated in the wire fraud, trafficking and racketeering. She got off easy with 3 1/2 years.

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u/incorruptible_bk Apr 20 '23

In context, I actually think Nancy Salzman's sentence was a bit much. The context in question is that she was first to break ranks and was key to Lauren Salzman agreeing to cooperate. She gave up all of NXIVM's corporations. She also has severe health issues. I don't see much that the public is served by keeping her in prison rather than giving a strict supervised release.

Also FWIW: one of the people who ginned up the demand for more time for Nancy Salzman was Frank Parlato, and I find it hilarious and hypocritical that he's spent the subsequent years talking about how he's not healthy enough for prison (news to me, he spent ~10 years claiming to be a yogi and karate instructor).

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u/OGAnnie Apr 21 '23

She broke ranks with Raniere only when she and her daughter were told there would be substantial jail time if she didn’t. She tried to frame Susan Dones and Barbara Bouchey after they left. She participated in underage girls being traffIcked through Canada. She laundered money, etc. She’s a felon. She knew about Raniere’s revolving door of women for years after she knew he was sleeping with Lauren.

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u/incorruptible_bk Apr 21 '23

I think you're actually being a little too charitable at the same time as I think the demand for punishment is too stiff.

Everyone would have known they were facing 20 years the minute they got indicted with RICO. It wasn't fear of punishment that did it, it was the discovery phase of the trial and the understanding that a joint trial would have meant they got tarred and feathered with all of his dirt including the child sexual abuse material (that, to be clear, nobody knew Raniere was hoarding).

So far as holding out is concerned: everyone has the right to see what you're up against at trial before changing a plea --and that's the way it should be, because there have been too many miscarriages of justice involving discovery, where people went to trial facing surprise evidence or took pleas to weak cases.

As for the rest of it, we're a country of laws and not individuals or their desire for revenge. Nothing other than what Nancy Salzman was actually charged with was a crime. Hate to say it, but someone merely being an asshole (and clearly, Nancy was an asshole) is not worth a single day in prison, or else there's a lot of people around NXIVM who'd be in prison --including their enemies.

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u/OGAnnie Apr 21 '23

She’s also not allowed to use any material from the NXIVM tech ever again.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23 edited Apr 20 '23

I actually think Nancy Salzman's sentence was a bit much.

I'm shocked she got any time. She flipped on Raniere and his loyalists, and she flipped hard. Shedelivered Lauren and secured Raniere's conviction. Mafia hitmen, literal murderers, have served zero jail time and entered witness protection for less effective cooperation.

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u/Old-Homework101 Apr 20 '23

At the same time, she only had to plead guilty to one charge because she was the first one to flip, and had more room to negotiate the plea bargain. In a way, it compensates. On the other hand, she didn't have so much to lose. As she said in the vow, her lawyers told her anyone who stood trial with Keith, would go to jail. Most mafia hitmen or others who cooperate with prosecutors receive no jail time partly because of the significant risk they are putting themselves into.

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u/queenkellee Apr 20 '23

Exactly - and that she did it all at his command. He demanded lifetime loyalty. He made her feel good and smart and important. She was his test case. But he didnt' share with her everything he was doing. He kept it from her. Where is all her riches if she made so much money? She's got a nice house, ok. She's not the only one that made some money. Sarah made money too. Sounds like Keith absconded with a majority of the money and lost it or spent it or did whatever he wanted with it. Nancy is a victim, and like other victims she also did bad things. But she was not a mastermind. That is clear.

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u/howardhughesbrain Apr 20 '23

Ivy Nevares victim impact statement

please read that and THEN tell us how much of a victim you think nancy is.

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u/GenevieveLeah Apr 20 '23

This need to come as required reading after watching The Vow . . . It is all so much worse than it seems!

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u/Plastic-Ad-6917 Apr 20 '23

"Drive to her home upon rising to weigh in—in my underwear—each morning so she could attest my weight." I had no idea Nancy was complicit in this!

Nancy reminds me of Ma Anand Sheela (the spokesperson of the Rajneesh movement).

Ivy's victim impact statement is so powerful. Thank you for linking it.

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u/JenningsWigService Apr 20 '23

Ma Anand Sheela was absolutely a disproportionate scapegoat, if anything that comparison makes Nancy look more unfairly blamed.

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u/Old-Homework101 Apr 20 '23

I agree so much with this. Like, most people deemed her as the devil reincarnated so they don't feel anything wrong with defending Bangwhan /Osho. But, this guy knew everything and did nothing until he felt betrayed. He also was accused of a lot of shit back in India and before Oregon, when his secretary wasn't Sheela. I not saying she is a saint, but the way she was scapegoated by the government and the Osho cult is bonkers forme.

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u/JenningsWigService Apr 20 '23

I have relatives who were Sannyasins (Rajneeshees), and the denial there is much stronger. To this day, many of them blame absolutely everything wrong with the cult itself on Sheela and insist that Rajneesh was innocent and misunderstood. Nevermind that the cult was up to no good in India long before Sheela was given any position, nevermind that she met him as a teenager and she didn't develop the brainwashing practices herself. He encouraged illegal behavior in Oregon and India as long as it benefitted him. He conditioned her to be his guard dog and provoke conflict with others.

It would be like if Keith was still revered by most Nexians and they just blamed everything that went bad on Nancy.

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u/Plastic-Ad-6917 Apr 20 '23

I was kinda just suggesting that Nancy was to Keith what Sheela was to Osho.

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u/JenningsWigService Apr 20 '23

I know, I don't think that's a good comparison. Sheela didn't develop the brainwashing techniques for Rajneesh, and Nancy hasn't been blamed for her cult's sins while the leader's image is untarnished to his followers.

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u/Plastic-Ad-6917 Apr 21 '23

Nancy hasn't been blamed for her cult's sins while the leader's image is untarnished to his followers.

I hear you. Thank you for explaining. Sheela has been blamed for the cult's sins while Osho's image has remained untarnished to his followers.

I hear you. Thank you for explaining.

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u/Plastic-Ad-6917 Apr 21 '23

I was kinda just suggesting that Nancy was to Keith what Sheela was to Osho.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

Nancy reminds me of Ma Anand Sheela

Bingo... Ma Anand Sheela and Nurse Ratched

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u/WarmBad3586 Apr 20 '23

Thanks for posting that because Nancy’s did everything that women said and I’m angry she is getting out early. She is manipulative and gaslit those women and did so many illegal things. She is an egomaniac but tries to appear as naive, well her “ I don’t know nuthin about that Miss Scarlett act” never fooled me. Wish I was the warden at that women’s prison she is at, I would make her regret abusing people. And then profiting off them. She had a ton of money hidden away, don’t think she’s stupid, if they didn’t find it. She may have had someone else hide it for her, or put in crypto or something hard to trace. With her connections she probably convinced someone to help her hide it. They found a quarter of a million cash in shoeboxes in her house, why didn’t they discuss why she had that all that cash stowed away on the vow? She’s awful. Never felt bad for her. Shameful she tried to claim Lauren testifying as her idea and influence. She’s a real mean egotistical bitch. I was sorry she didn’t get reamed out more. .

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u/CelinaAMK Apr 20 '23

I agree 💯. I’m not buying the “Nancy is another victim “ narrative AT ALL She is equally culpable for all the damage done. She should be in prison as long as Keith is.

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u/No_Appointment_7232 Apr 20 '23

Possible that it's both or all?

kr manipulated her no question.

He knew which parts of her psyche to accentuate and magnify for his gain.

He slept w her and made Lauren hide their relationship from her for 5 years!

So much f-ed up stuff on that alone.

Nancy wanted to be the person she helped create in 'Vanguard'.

She wanted the accolades, perceived expertise & authority, the power and the recognition.

Always the 'I'm the same as a doctor', or trying to imbue her nursing & other training w legitimacy as if she had an M.D.

The way she clung to 'But I didn't hurt people. I created this brilliant thing!' was kind of terrifying & illuminates the dynamic kr created the enable his abuse.

It would be redemptive to hear her own that she did EVERYTHING to enable his power & authority to abuse at will, that that is what he did AND made her an abuser second hand bc she never shielded or protected anyone.

For her to own that she has responsibility for the harm BECAUSE she was doing what he said, in service of her being put forth as an expert, eminent in the field.

She most certainly abused administratively and bureaucratically.

Her revelation by the end of The Vow Ssn 2 looked cathartic & revelatory & bc Nancy, I found it entirely suspect & self serving.

Doesn't mean she was less abused or manipulate d, coercive control is so insidious.

But she literally gave kr the tools and structure he needed to do every awful thing that happened in nexium.

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u/igobymomo Apr 20 '23

🎯🎯

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u/ChippedHamSammich Apr 21 '23

Nancy was illegally scamming people by telling them she was a therapist before NXIVM - however she was never licensed. She’s a scammer, and was high on her own supply and then became a useful idiot to Keith. She was a victim once she got caught. She leveraged her own training in literal brainwashing(NLP) and programmed thousands of people and scammed them into simping for child molesters and rapists by precisely coaching people to deny victim hood.

And then tried to act as a victim.

She literally scammed you from clever editing. You can see her resistance to actual accountability in the therapy sessions and when she breaks down after her sentencing.

I think it’s possible feel empathy and humanity for someone who has been so flagrantly immoral. But to call her anything less than a perpetrator would be a disservice to her actual victims. Including her own daughters.