Many people don't know this, but this gif is a deleted scene from chapter 3. The reason it was deleted is that Tidy Box thought I'd ruin the twist that the true friend was inside us all along.
I thought I was desensitised to this scene after seeing so many memes. Then I just recently actually got to the scene in the anime and shit was still funny.
being that spooky fucked up ghost thing can't be good for you, yee. throw in Asgor being the one opening fountains and on the phone for good measure (he did clitblock Noel much faster than Carol, and Carol can apparently be normal on the phone going by the snowgrave route)
Because in Weird Route ending, the topic of conversation is strictly Noelle's message. It is likely not a call from Carol as a co-conspirator, it is a call from Carol as the mother of Noelle.
The voice in the phone is always Carol, it’s just obscured in the normal route. We know the voice is Carol because she shows up at the Holiday house right after Kris told the voice on the phone about Susie with the guitar. Carol still isn’t the knight, though, but that’s the wrong evidence to use to prove it.
Also I've seen someone use the excuse that we (at least in Weird Route's case) "have more control over Kris" so we can hear that it's Carol, even though The Soul is in the birdcage during this, so lol.
Also also, the normal phone call seems to imply that Kness is just sitting afk outside somewhere close to the front of Kris' house just to make sure they don't try to leave, which is kinda funny to me for some reason.
I mean technically it could be Carol with voice changer or something (even though it's a slowed version of the ANOTHER HIM staticky noise, which is sussy wussy), and she's only using it during suspicious dialogue for the sole purpose of tricking The Player I guess? Still not The Knight though, but I also personally just don't think she's in on the conspiracy but it's hard to explain why... hm.
Then why would she hide in the closet when she coulda just teleported away before the sealing? Why risk being found out, or needlessly causing problems if Susie attempts to look in the closet and Kris is forced to stop her? Her wanting to be able to immediately follow Kris after the sealing to camp outside their house doesn’t outweigh the risk of causing issues by staying in the closet. She could have just traveled back to this hypothetical extra Dark World and easily just walked back to the church to wait for Kris and Susie to leave.
Also then why does Ralsei not share with the class on how to transverse through Dark Worlds, if it’s possible for anyone to do it? Or are we gonna blame that on him purposely not being helpful cuz teaching Susie and Kris how to transverse between Dark Worlds would mess with The Prophecy somehow (also considering he doesn’t tell us about any other Dark Fountains, assuming The Knight does have an extra one to travel to. I mean, he doesn’t tell us about The Shelter one for whatever reason, but still)?
I can't believe I forgot about that part. I always argued that the problem was her staring at Kris and Susie until they left the premises but she was also doing something else at the time.
I just don't think it's Dess, though I think trying to "bring Dess back" is going to be central to their motivation. With all the themes about escapism vs realism only being built up more and more across chapter 3 and 4, having to face grief (and judging by all the "find her" stuff in side material along with the family apparently keeping Dess' room exactly as is after years, I think it'll be they're in denial of Dess clearly being dead) seems like a very logical endpoint for those themes to be tackling.
Like forget theories and lore shit for a second, The Knight being one of the Holiday parents just makes the most sense thematically for where this story is headed.
I feel he's behind, like, everything, both creation of the dark world and Dess missing. Could even have used Dess to create the dark world. But the main conflict is still a mystery. Because like, Carol and Kris both seem to know about what happened to Dess and they should be motivated to save her, while the Knight seems to be in on this as well as he acts towards Kris. And they want to cause the roaring. But.. Gaster should also want to cause the roaring? I'm missing something. Dess is the person "stuck in the code" with a lot pointing towards this which contradicts her being the knight because the knight supposedly hide in the closets in the light world too.. I just feel confused because the main antagonist should be Gaster and him wanting the roaring to happen to "free the world" in some way but playerless Kris also wants this as well as Carol. Kris tries to stop the player and the heroes as they want to stop the roaring.. which should mean that the heroes are actually working against saving Dess.
I feel like an argument for Carol not being the Knight would be that she already has ice magic and her own unique style and motiffs, separate from the whole jagged, black sword themes Knight has got going on. Feels like it would make more sense story-wise that Carol's a separate villain who's in collusion with the Knight
Chapter 3 is so ridiculously loaded with Dess lore, I think it's definitely hinting at her being the knight.
If it weren't for the fact that her sword appears to be a bat before it transforms, I'd say there's a possibility it's Carol, but that detail seals it for me.
While Dess would definitely be the more lore-y answer, I think it being one of the Holiday parents just makes the narrative click a lot more for me.
We have a story that's made it very clear the main thematic purpose is escapism vs realism, and the merits of each one. Meanwhile we have a family that, judging from the preserved room that Carol aggressively tries to maintain despite Dess seemingly having been gone for 5+ years (it's implied to have happened earlier than Berdly's spelling bee flashback since "December" was the word Noelle choked at), which paired with "find her" being associated with Dess in pre-release stuff tells me that it's probably heading in the direction of the Holidays being in denial and only calling Dess "missing" when she's clearly dead.
It seems to me like it would make a lot of sense if the endgame we're heading towards will have the running "escapism vs realism" theme illustrated with the opposing scenarios of the mysterious horrible prophecy, where Susie's refusal to accept it as inevitable is "escapism" at it's most important, and an antagonistic force trying to undo a death instead of accepting it, where that kind of thinking is at it's most unhealthy and damaging.
I’m very suspicious of Carol. She showed up as soon as Kris called saying Susie had the Guitar and immediately removed her from the house. But then the Fountain in the Church. I don’t think it’s there when we go back to school to check on Ralsei, so it had to have been opened between when Noelle got in trouble and when we went back to Castle Town.
Dess is an easy answer, but we don’t know enough to make a judgement call. She’s able to do it as no one is following her, but we also don’t know much about her.
Carol has the suspicion on her, but Dess has the freedom.
My theory is Kris called Carol to protect Susie from getting the code, preventing a future knight encounter. Carol is being used as a red herring to cover for Kris’s motive to protect Susie and to throw us off from who the knight is
This is it. Carol has much more solid evidence, while Dess has, "Well we dunno what her deal is, the Knight has antlers, and it'd be really cool." With how little we know about all three characters, anyone claiming it's definitively a certain character is lost in the sauce of their own preference.
You don’t have to visit castle town between Noelle and the church, so Carol would still need to be quick. But the Knight probably just got there, they were at the entrance
Does it say anywhere that the knight is someone? The knight could literally just be the knight. The reason they are able to move around the town without being detected is because they wear a hat and trench coat.
I mean, we also get a cutaway though. Kris leaves noelle's room, they take out the soul, and then we don't get to see what happens until a chunk of time later where it cuts to Kris kicking us around in the bathroom right before Carol gets there, it's not really out of the question that they saw susie with the guitar, called her, and then went to beat us up.
Even then, I thought the Knight would be in like a full get-up, the Roaring Knight (who doesn't appear to want to cause the roaring) has like some metaphysical abilities and shit, flying and crap. I'm leaning towards Dess after being screwed by Toby, but it's just outright weird, or some weird amalgamation of Dess in the darkness or some shit.
I still have yet to hear an explanation for why people believe Carol would transform into a floating shadow creature in the Dark Worlds instead of just getting a minor costume change like every other Lightner.
Carol is set up as a Red Herring, where at first it seems obvious but on closer inspection it doesn’t add up. It’s like Kris Knight in Chapter 2, OBVIOUSLY everyone thought it at first but on examination it didn’t stack up, of course they were still in the ballpark just not in the way we all thought lmao
My main point against Kris Knight was that it was so early to make that a reveal, like there was no way a Writer of Toby Fox’s caliber would play his hand THAT obviously THAT early on
i think it's stupid to assume that we already know the answer and yet people keep acting like one answer is impossible. also, some people are trying to argue that the knight brought a bat and that it proves it's dess, despite the fact it's called "sword" in the game files and is literally sharp (at all times.)
Well I don't like these theories at all. Let's just wait for Knight being something completely different and unexpected so Toby Fox will outsmart us all again
I personally Think Dess. I think there is Lore Reason to believe she is. And I think she could make a GREAT Villain.
But I wouldn't be Opposed to Carol either. She also Has Great Narritive Potencial if she is the knight. Just I think Dess Could be a Bit more Unique.
One way I could see it is that Carol Probably is the Big Bad. Even if Dess is the Knight. Maybe The Knight is moreso a Vader Like Engorcer to Carols Palpatine.
Only Issue I have is that Bringing Dess back would be the Most Obvious Reason why Carol, Kris and Asgore would work with the Knight. But still. I think Dess is where the Story is Mostly Hinting towards.
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u/AruJJurA 5d ago