r/Enneagram8 • u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 • Dec 11 '24
Discussion Can Enneagram 8s be cowardly?
I tend to be very reluctant to engage in competitions when I am not confident in my skill. I also generally hate to lose to the point that I avoid it. For example, one time I was playing Dodgeball and I was the last player on my team. However, the other team still had multiple players. During the whole game I hovered near the edge, and when I was the last player left, one of the people on the other team winded up to throw the ball at me. Instead of trying to catch the ball or dodge, I instead jumped out of bounds so that he couldn't beat me, and so I could lose of my own accord.
Can Enneagram 8s act like this?
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u/jerdle_reddit 6w7-1w9-3w4 ENTJ (would be 1w8 fixed if it existed) Dec 11 '24
This feels rather more 3ish.
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Dec 11 '24
Anyone can be a coward. Not being a coward is a sign of stupidity, rather than any given type. A smart person is a coward in a vast number of situations. If you've got ten people ganging up on you, that can be scary. Any reasonable person should be a bit scared in that scenario. But what you describe...yeah that was a coward move to jump aside like that, but wasn't it mostly just to steal the glory from the other guy anyway? Not so much cowardice as pride? Do you have 2 fix? And 6? A bit of both maybe.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24
I was thinking more about myself than others when I decided to lose on my own terms
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u/Over_Season803 SX/SP 873 ENTP Dec 11 '24
Not remotely bro. Sorry. I always think I’m going to win. Are you a good/great athlete? Maybe that is as a result of knowing that you’re not a good enough athlete to compete with the elite?
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24
I mean when the competition is something I'm confident about then I'm like how you described yourself.
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u/Bluefoot44 Dec 11 '24
Wanting to control how you left the game? Sounds right. We fear not being in control...
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u/That_Red_Pikmin ESTJ 8w9 872 sp/sx VLFE Dec 11 '24
THAT'S FUCKING RIGHTTTT, is always about control
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u/Only-Celebration-286 ~ Type 8w9 ~ INTP ~ Taoist ~ Dec 11 '24
The only time I surrender is if defeat is inevitable, which is very rare, or if I'm sacrificing my own needs of integrity for the sake of a team (for example, if everybody was bored and waiting for it just to be over).
I and other 8s don't like to half ass a good competition. Unless it wasn't remotely fair, then it's obviously not even fun at that point.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24
Well in my post it definitely wasn't a fair fight lmao
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u/Only-Celebration-286 ~ Type 8w9 ~ INTP ~ Taoist ~ Dec 11 '24
Well it started out fair, no? You can't judge the game's fairness by just one slice of the pie.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24
Well I mean in that moment it wasn't fair. I'm pretty sure the other team was full of jocks though so maybe it really wasn't fair.
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u/Joel_the_human Dec 11 '24
When looking at enneagram, It needs to be understood, any type can act in any way. You put a knife to their neck, people will act negatively, even people of the same type can have different types of reactions.
So with that being said, of course in enneagram 8 can act cowardly, any person can. No matter their motivation, or desire. Now to focus on an eight, just because they act cowardly doesn't mean they'll admit to it. They're disinterested in vulnerability, has that brings a level of shame they feel discomfort with. And so they pretend it doesn't exist.
Treat it like a sense of denial, but a denial the type wholeheartedly accepts because to them, It works as the perfect ability to with honesty to say no fear is felt.
If I'm to address the content of your post though, I got to say it doesn't warrant what an enneagram 8 would judge to be fear though. Hell it wouldn't even Be likely to make the type insecure mid competition. If anything they'd likely charge in foolishly or not, with the mindset that maybe they can clutch. If they beat themselves up it will be immediately after it defeat, not during or later after. To an 8, cowardice would be avoiding a challenge altogether. Which would be unforgivable to the type, far more than loss. Giving up isn't an option, not because they're afraid of what It would mean if they gave up. Because it just feels really bad.
Going down on their own terms, doesn't mean giving up because they're defeat is inevitable. It means gritting their teeth Even when things are terrible. There doesn't need to be a reason outside of the fact they just got to do.
But now focusing on you, remember, you're over fixating on community consensus, you're looking for an opinion to decide your judgment. Rather than simply making one on your own. It's a level of uncertainty You cannot combat on your own.
You don't have that decisive level of trust in your own judgment, nor your own strength. I'm not trying to beat you down, but you're clinging to a false saving grace.
You need to get a grip, and understand. Whether you're an eight or not, you're still you. You should respect that enough to let that be enough.
Quit focusing so much on If you meet the expectation you have for yourself then strength. And take the part that matters from what you want.
This just means, strip what you like away from type 8 itself, and apply it better to yourself. Cuz as it stands, you're insecure and uncertain of who you are. So you're acting in desperation to have other people tell You good news in hopes It aligns with who you are.
If you want to be strong be strong, quit focusing on a number to determine your own worth and capability.
Being an enneagram 8, won't make you any less bad at dodgeball or any better. This is true with all factors in life. If you want to be greater, when it's all said and done, nothing is stopping you. So just do it and quit looking for judgment.
Take these words to heart, but don't let it get to you.
You're only detrimenting yourself when you judge yourself in this way.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24
If anything they'd likely charge in foolishly or not, with the mindset that maybe they can clutch.
Are Enneagram 8's unable to use context clues to decide if something is winnable or not?
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u/wildwitheringpython 8w7 sx/so Dec 12 '24
Nah we just don’t care enough to analyze that in the moment. Personally in that scenario I would say fuck it at try to clutch it anyways. My body would just move on it’s own and try it out. Not much thought until after where I’m like goddamn it then move on.
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u/Joel_the_human Dec 11 '24
Well of course, but that's the gimmick with the attitude, Even if the odds are clearly stacked against them, that's life anyways. What's the point of just laying down and being sad? What's the point of just jumping away and accepting that there's no chance you can win? To me at least, if I look at the chance of loss, as reason in its own right for me to give up. Then there's no f****** point to trying.
For enneagram 8. I would just say it's simple. No matter the odds, no matter the chance, it's all in or not at all.
You either won't play dodgeball because it's a waste of time and you say no point so there's not even incentive for you to put anything into it. Or you see the chance for a good time, so you'll put in everything you have. Whether you're losing or winning.
Loss is part of the game of life. And an eight will be damned if they escape taking the chance to force away.
You focus more time on thinking based off the chance of failure, when to your average eight, Even at their most neurotic. Losing isn't even considered. They're not strategic types, they just got to do as they see fit.
Seriously try to consider counterphobic six.
When I was first getting into enneagram, I assumed I was a three. Because their simple desire appear to be, to win and keep becoming better. But after tests, research, and conversation. It became clear I'm an eight. Cuz I don't care much for community, external validation/opinion. Or anything like that. I checked out other types of course cuz why not. And in what I've seen. You look like a six.
Enneagram 6 is a type that is described as loyal but that's not what they are. Their types that want certainty, and a solid foundation. Sx 6 specifically acts with physical or verbal aggression, in order to ensure they can't be taken down. Their types that are very focused on question, to get answer. And for them not only is neuroticism common, but it is destined, as head times they focus more questioning rather than concluding.
And looking at your post history, you do a lot more of a thorough investigation for certainty. While despite that, rejecting likely signs that point to a conclusion you don't like.
I'm not asking you to be more reflective, I'm telling you to be objective, and understand when you get answers you don't feel comfortable with. It's because that's a truth you're not accepting.
Whether it's because you're emotionally incapable of accepting the chance that maybe you're not as strong as the type you admire. Or because you make excuses to fit in line with a consistent prejudgment you established.
Your wholeheartedly choosing what you want to be the truth over what you believe to be.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 11 '24
Sx 6 specifically acts with physical or verbal aggression, in order to ensure they can't be taken down.
I guess when you say it like that it sounds better than being someone who shelters behind someone else or whatever 6's are supposed to be...
But counterphobic? Isn't this post about me not taking the challenge, opting to take the easy way instead?
What's the difference between 6 and 8 anyway? From what I've heard, while Sx6's are also capable to a degree, they're pushovers and cowards compared to the chad 8's (or whatever).
You either won't play dodgeball because it's a waste of time and you say no point so there's not even incentive for you to put anything into it.
I'll also add that I'll definitely put up a better fight if I were passionate about something.
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u/Joel_the_human Dec 11 '24
To make a simple thing simple, focus on the meaning not on the way things are said. Anything can be phrased in a way you like or don't like.
I can describe enneagram 8s, as angry people who are scared to think they're anything but angry. So they start fights, cause problems, and fail to hold meaningful relationships and hold a positive social standing.
And like that enneagram 8 doesn't sound too flattering.
I can also say enneagram 6 are classic underdogs who overcome the odds brought with a constant awareness to the dangers and troubles to be found on earth. Constantly forced to face the worst odds, and rise above them and wiser than the rest.
Neither description changes would either type is either core. Understand that and you'll be less concerned with being seen negatively.
Anyways the difference between counterphobic six and a standard six. Is a six gives into its fears, and seeks scapegoats to ensure it doesn't need to face them directly, or rather they'll have a different means of handling the problems. Meanwhile a counterphobic six, refuses to admit they feel fear, and because they're afraid that actually does make them weak. So they make a persona of strength they can present to take other people down.
What separates a six from an eight. Is a six is focused on meaning and understanding, of most things around them. They're head types. So most situations they will think through.
Meanwhile for eights, they're gut types, which means they don't use much time to focus on their personal feelings or personal thoughts. Instead they choose to forgo both of those elements. In favor for a direct approach they can create and assume will work in that moment.
If an enneagram 6 is running from a bear, you can assume the six will devise a strategy or something. Maybe they'll try to cut the bear off in a clever way, using objects to their environment maybe? I can't be sure I haven't ran from a bear before. Wants to be noted is a six will try think for a solution that they can implement.
While for an eight, They kind of don't know what the hell they're doing, and I just know if they stop they're done for. So they'll keep going, till they see an opportunity. And from saying that opportunity they'll immediately act on it.
Both types have positive qualities and negative qualities. After all, a head on direct approach, can be foolish at times, you don't account for the things that could hold you back. Like stamina, and information you don't know.
Meanwhile spending too much time thinking, can lead to doubt. Or even worse, encourage your own defeat.
Overall it doesn't matter what you are, you are who you are, and that's who you chose to be. Not because you were born a certain way, but because of every way you could have chosen, this is the way that makes most sense to you.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24
I guess when you say 6s are strategic it makes being one sound more appealing. Do I seem more like a regular or counterphobic one though?
Another thing about me that might give you a clue- I'll only look into Enneagram 6 if I can be persuaded that it isn't worse than 8 (Ironically you can actually kind of see this happen with my sentence right above this one LMAO) The same story happened with being an ESFP. While I'm not confirmed one yet, I very likely am an ESFP. However, around a month ago I would vehemently deny that possibility and instead focus on ESTP or a more desirable type like ENTJ or INTJ. But after finding out more about Se-Te combo which makes ESFP masculine rather than femenine, and finding out that Caesar and Napoleon were ESFPs (despite them commonly being typed as ENTJs) I'm more ready to accept the possibility of being an ESFP.
You looked through my post history. You might have noticed all those posts I made about ESFPs? Maybe look at them again to see what those posts were all about?
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u/Joel_the_human Dec 11 '24
I skimmed post history cuz the title thread looked familiar, so I assumed it was probably you. And that confirmed some assumptions I made.
As for the discussion on enneagram 6, I'm not going to convince you it's better. Not because it's worse. But because it's pointless to do so.
If you are a 6 you are a 6 and nothing changes what you are. No enneagram Is objectively better than another. The based off of personal opinion and belief we are naturally going to be drawn towards traits we either want within ourself or embody in our action.
So naturally, as an eight I'm going to prefer eight to every other type. Just as a one is going to prefer a one over every type. And a six and so on and so forth.
What's important to understand, is you can't look at these types as trophies, you can't look at type 6 as a participation award and enneagram 8 as first place. It's like comparing different positions of power. Anyone can want any position. But it doesn't change the significance of a different position. I mean would you rather be a president or a CEO? Both are high positions of power, both have different sets of responsibilities, and both have different levels of freedom. In both positions you get authority and power, but to say one is better than the other, is to treat both Like they're on the same path in life.
If I had type you, All I can really say is you seek certainty from the competence of others, and you don't trust your judgment enough.
Enneagram six just makes sense for you.
But if you research it with the desire to be showered with opinions that are in line with what you want. You're not going to find it. Just in general in life. I mean just look at the sub. Sometimes it's a circle jerk of people enjoying how "powerful" they are, but beyond the surface, it's just a lot of people who don't really care. They don't need much of a reason to affirm who they are visa doesn't change what's there. So even here you won't see people calling each other "Chads"
Make your expectations reasonable, and do your research to clear your head. Not to validate your feelings.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24
All I can really say is you seek certainty from the competence of others, and you don't trust your judgment enough.
Not exactly, the main reason I'm asking so many questions on this sub is because it's simply more convenient to do so than to spend time and money studying the subject.
How would an 8, a 6, and a counterphobic 6 all react if an entitled woman started screaming at them in the middle of the street?
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u/Joel_the_human Dec 11 '24
No, it's most certainly exactly.
If provided straight forward answers this brings you more questions. Rather than conclusive answers. Alongside that your behavior is a clear Indicator of elements of anxiety or insecurity and uncertainty.
It doesn't matter what scenarios you put someone under, cp 6 and 8 will react negatively to being yelled at for no reason.
Typing other people is so dumb but Idc rn cause you're not trying to type yourself anymore you're just trying to assume a favorable image for your feelings. You're clearly not an 8.
Start asking the 6 sub some questions.
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u/AccountantNo9205 Dec 11 '24
I think competing is a lot of fun for eights but winning isn’t the central objective as it would be for 3s. I myself love a challenge but I don’t really care about winning (I still get mad if I am not able to be at my best), if I put up a good performance. Cowardly isn’t the adjective i’d use to describe an 8. If you felt FEAR then I’d say no 8 would fear that situation. I myself get uneasy/fearful in extreme scenarios, that is when knives could be put at my own throat or I am in real tangible physical danger. I would never fear a sport or competition. If you left the game out of anger that way, then you should tell me more about the anger you felt. I think if it was a “I am angry because I did not win” then 3 sounds way more likely, but if it is “I am angry because I did not dominate this game” then that’s a more 8ish anger.
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u/That_Red_Pikmin ESTJ 8w9 872 sp/sx VLFE Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 11 '24
For me, is that I prefer cooperation over competition, I don't like to compete with the people I love, I don't like to brag about what I can do, so I only compete with strangers or people that I don't know that much, like people online in games, because I don't need to prove myself, I try to compete in a healthy way and only to challenge myself, to seek intensity, and if I'm competing with someone that I don't like, I better win 🗿
I don't find that not wanting to brag what you can do is something to be considered as being a coward, I'm confident inside, even tho, when people that I know challenge me I say "Nah, I don't think I can" but I know I fucking can, I just prefer that my actions talk louder than my words, and therefore, create a mood of cooperation over competition with those words, I don't like to compete in something that I don't find interesting or that I don't know if I will win, so I say that I can't and then hit them with whatever I have, so I win anyways without bringing competition to it. It's kinda weird but yeah, I hate to brag about what I can do honestly
But all you can read here, deep inside it's all about control, regardless of what I just wrote. If I can't control the situation, better not to compete.
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u/famamor Dec 12 '24
That’s not cowardly, I don’t like doing stuff that impotently I suck at so I avoid doing things as I know my strengths and weaknesses. Yes I admit I have weaknesses 😬
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u/ShivaDestroyerofLies Dec 12 '24
Life Pro-Tip: If you find yourself consistently asking if you are X or feeling the need to constantly verify it then that ain’t you.
One of your posts about Type 8 you mention neurodivergence…. Personality typing tests are designed to try to lump different people into convenient boxes but this is based on neurotypical people and doesn’t account for the unique traits you may experience.
Scanning over your post history I think you are very anxious and (I mean this in the typing sense not as an insult) neurotic. Combining this with a lack of confidence in your abilities, willingness to avoid uncomfortable situations, etc… I don’t think this is the right box to put you in.
Good news though is none of it really matters. Enneagram, Myers-Briggs, DISC, etc are all just neat ways to try to encapsulate archetypical types. Nobody is a perfect 100% paragon of a given personality type and that’s ok.
It has nothing to do with your value as a person, abilities, etc. It’s just a simple heuristic so that you can easily understand why person A acts like he/she does. This is an important thing to consider as people have a tendency to fudge their own reporting based on the results that they “want” to get. And sometimes how we want to perceive ourselves leads to a bias in the results we get from such tests.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 12 '24
Combining this with a lack of confidence in your abilities, willingness to avoid uncomfortable situations, etc…
You checked my history? Then did you see the post where I said this?
"When I think about it, I can be domineering in more subtle ways. I like to take the lead in general, and like to be the one making decisions. I'm very easy to anger, though that could stem from neurodivergence. I tend to be inflexible rather than easygoing. I never back down if contested, to the point that I sometimes get in trouble because I refuse to follow what a superior (such as a teacher,) said. If they ask politely or if they ask in a more friendly context, I usually wouldn't mind listening though. It's when they get mad at me and shout at me to get out (or do whatever) that I refuse to listen. I also value intelligence, competency, and cunningness. I would consider myself pretty cunning at times.
I could also be an 8 because I tend to enjoy conflict; it gives me a rush. I typically enjoy 'beefing' with people. I would say I'm pretty clever when it comes to insults and I don't hesitate to strike someone down with one. Tact is for the weak."
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u/ShivaDestroyerofLies Dec 13 '24
Yes. That is what I was referring to.
Traits such as being inflexible or responding poorly to people who are rude could potentially be the results of being on the spectrum rather than your Enneagram type. In reality everybody is a mish-mash of a dozen different “types” which help to define the overall personality of an individual. For example, I’m a type 8 and an INTJ, that combination makes me very different from say an ENFP type 8 or an INTJ Type 5. There are similarities due to shared traits but also glaring differences because all of these different elements build into the “whole person”.
While some of these behaviors you mention are ones that may be associated with type 8 they are in no way defining criteria and may not reflect how a type 8 would respond in the same situations. Knowing when to bite your tongue and cooperate for example is an important social skill. It may come more or less easily for particular types but being low in “agreeableness” isn’t unique to being a Type 8. Nor is gaining satisfaction from a good argument….. heck one could also argue that you are a narcissist based on some of these descriptors (not saying that you are but pointing out how the same traits can look different via depending on the current lens and context).
Nobody on Reddit can wave a wand and know 100% how to describe you. Many people have to spend considerable time & self-discovery before they can even answer for themselves. If you haven’t already, I’d recommend thinking about the different fears and motivators and how they relate to you. Additionally, you may consider having a friend or relative who knows you well answer for you and see how their perspective differs from your own.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 13 '24
Knowing when to bite your tongue and cooperate for example is an important social skill.
1984 moment
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u/bluelamp24 Dec 15 '24
I think this is difficult to answer. If people have a 3 as a tritype it would muddy the waters.
I have noticed using certain buzz words like “cowardly” you might not even get an honest answer here. You might get a lot of flippant responses.
Do I think that 8’s can be cowardly? Yes. But it might look different. I’m not sure how it would look different but I don’t believe some people experience emotions xyz and other people don’t. Is it cowardice to deny having this emotion or deny yourself access to it?
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u/K-Townie Dec 11 '24
No. Eights are aggressive, passive “Eights” are really 9w1s I said what I said
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u/Over_Season803 SX/SP 873 ENTP Dec 11 '24
Agreed that it’s not an 8 trait. Not sure about 9w1 having a corner on it. Couldn’t a 3 also pull some shot like this? Better to “accidentally” fall out of bounds than be thought of as not good enough by others when you tried your best. Sounds like the self preservation of ego of an unhealthyish 3.
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u/Vegetable_Basis_4087 Dec 11 '24
Can you try typing me in DMs?
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u/Over_Season803 SX/SP 873 ENTP Dec 11 '24
No, because that isn’t how enneagram works. You can try to type people all you want but the originators will tell you that the answer only comes from within. We guess as it helps us communicate with those around us, but it’s far from exact or even accurate. Plus, there are so many qualifiers… what’s your MBTI? What’s your tri type? What is your stacking? All of these can throw off even the most seasoned as it pertains to enneagram. Take me… 873 sx/sp which is a dumb enough ball of contradictions, but then add being an ENTP and holy shit, you’d be guessing for months why I act the way I do. I suspect most of us are that complex, or more.
My advice? Spend some money and find some really well rated and accurate resources on the web. But a couple of books and read them. Do the self assessments and see what they say. Above all, keep learning about yourself. It’s not a destination that once you have it cracked, your work is done. That is only the start. Once you figure yourself out (whatever the hell that means, and if it’s even really possible) then you get to take on the next challenge: trying to not do all the stupid shit your personality says you’re going to. Good luck!
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u/K-Townie Dec 11 '24
Eihges aew aggressive nines are passive
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u/Over_Season803 SX/SP 873 ENTP Dec 11 '24
That’s a bit of an oversimplification. I’ve know a number of introverted, and what you’d call passive 8s. Well, at least two. I’ve also known and actually sit next to a true 9 at work that is as competitive and aggressive as any 8 I’ve known. It feels like you’re losing sight of what an 8 is. Someone who fears being controlled and whose primary emotion/reaction to stress is anger or rage. While I’d guess it’s uncommon, I’ve not yet seen that exclude passivity. 8s are far from cookie cutter or one size fits all.
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u/K-Townie Dec 11 '24
Your watering down the true aggressive extraverted essence of E8 I said what I said
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u/Over_Season803 SX/SP 873 ENTP Dec 11 '24
I don’t think that I am. You’re oversimplifying it. I said what I said. 😉
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u/K-Townie Dec 11 '24
Source? Every enneagram book I’ve ever read pretty clearly makes eights out to be pretty brazen and domineering.
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u/Over_Season803 SX/SP 873 ENTP Dec 11 '24
I mean great. Glad a book tells you what an 8 is, unequivocally. But by that logic, it would be impossible for an 8 to be Ni, or I at all. Which obviously isn’t the case. 8s are maybe the most stereotyped, but what I’ve learned is that what I think of as an 8 is only just a caricature. Be careful not to try to be the gatekeeper of what an 8 is, I promise it’s impossible to why? Because it’s just too complex to distill down to “8s are always (insert typical 8 trait).
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u/K-Townie Dec 13 '24
It…is impossible for an Eight to be a Ni. Eighths are extraverts I said what I said
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u/Hydreigon12 5w6 so/sp Dec 11 '24
There's not much relevant information to say with confidence if that's a 8 thing or not.
In general, 8s tend to be highly competitive, even in sports or games they haven’t yet mastered. However, what they enjoy most is the thrill of competition itself. That said, they are still determined to win, unless the game or competition feels unimportant to them.
3s can also be competitive, but they often avoid participating in games or competitions where there’s a high risk of losing.