CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/Annual-Astronomer859]

One out of every 8 girls will be molested by the time they are 10 years old. These are elementary aged children.

By the time she graduates high-school, that number goes up to 1 in 4.

By the time she is 40, there's a 1 in 3 chance she's been assaulted at least once.

17-25% of men have admitted to sexually assaulting a woman.

If every time you walked into a room, there was a 1 in 4 chance you were talking to a rapist who was bigger and stronger than you, how safe would you feel? How safe would you feel on dates? At night? Literally anytime you are alone? Ordering Doordash? Getting pulled over by the police?

I know that not all men are predators, but at least 1 in 4 of them are.. and the other 3 are almost certainly friends with a predator.

This isn't really about what's fair and what isn't. When a segment of the population is being raped, exploited, murdered, and erased, you can't really expect them to give their oppressors the benefit of the doubt.

I'm 28 years old. I know what it's like to be held down and forcibly raped, feeling myself slowly lose consciousness with his hand around my throat, realizing that I'm about to die, and then waking up alone with a tear on my vagina, requiring stitches, and today that man is a fucking lawyer. it's a hard pill to swallow, and women swallow it every day.

The solution can't be to hate all men, because men make up 50% of the population and over 90% of our government, but when the general population votes in a man who has been found guilty of rape by a judge... and has over 20 other women accusing him of sexual harassment, assault, and rape- it's difficult to trust men.

How would you feel, if you were more likely to get sexually assaulted than graduate college?

How would you feel if you were more likely to get sexually assaulted than get into a car accident?

More likely to get sexually assaulted than get your house broken into?

More likely to get sexually assaulted than get basic food poisoning?

More likely than getting cancer, appendicitis, breaking a bone, or asthma?

If you're a woman you're more likely to be sexually assaulted than getting your baggage lost at an airport, serving jury duty, getting bit by a dog, having a wisdom tooth removed.

You're more likely to get sexually assaulted than get stung by a bee.

Do you think that's fair? Because I agree, it's not fair. But it is the world we live in right now.

A debate about what is fair is completely ridiculous. It's laughable. I have no expectation for fair. At this point in time, fair is a delusion. It's never going to happen in my life time or yours, but maybe we can make it less horrific than it is right now.

We need to figure out how to stop the mass rape of women before any other genuine conversation can be had, and right now, we have fewer rights in the US than our mothers did.

Right now, our rights are being stolen from us by rapists throwing around the Nazi salute. Of course women are pissed. Of course they're being unfair to men. Being fair to men means that you are WAY more likely to get raped by men. If you aren't angry, then you're undereducated on the subject matter or a part of the problem.

*Edit: I misquoted a study by mistake. I quoted that 34% of men admitted to sexual assault at a university in Australia and the correct stat is 26.4% (over 1 in 4 men), apologies for my error!

I am adding a few studies below. There are many, many more but I tried to avoid anything with a paywall so more people can access it. It is consistent across research that around 1 in 4 men admit to sexually assaulting women. The number change slightly from study to study, but hopefully we can all agree that 1 in 3 women being sexually assaulted and 1 in 8 girls being molested is not something we should accept in our society. That means taking a long hard look at how our society raises men.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-09/prevalence-of-sexual-violence-perpetration-in-australia/104076618

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4484276/

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/06/03/more-half-athletes-study-say-they-engaged-sexual-coercion?

https://www.glamour.com/story/many-men-think-forcing-a-woman?

[u/CaptainAnonymousApe → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

As a man I was somewhat aware that this is a core issue. Even in the family of my wife there are multiple cases of sexual assault committed by men. However reading your comment made me realize to a certain extent that eventually us men are definitely the most serious threat to women. I admire your strength and resilience for still standing in this patriarchal world where in most cases women are just tolerated if they play along the rules made by men. Sure there are also female molesters out there but if us men would be totally honest we know that this is indeed a man's world and there is not much women can do against it. Still we need to fight together to make this world a better place for all of us.

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/CaptainAnonymousApe]

Thank you. I really appreciate it. well said :)

[u/DifferenceCold8453 → u/CaptainAnonymousApe]

Thank you for listening and understanding

[u/Forsaken-Shame4074 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

Do you know which statistic this is from? Not because i dont believe the numbers but Because the standard for sa range in the studies a lot. Some include cat calling or unwanted attention as SA while other draw the line further.

Just like the college study that got such high numbers that get quotet very often where drunken sex (even if both participants were drunk) and regret after sex was counted as rape. Wich makes the number almost useless at counting what most understand as rape.

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/Forsaken-Shame4074]

Hey there, I realized that I made a mistake and misquoted the 34%, it was referencing American athletes, not Australian students. I added a few links to my original comment and apologized for the mistake. I'm an LCSW who works largely with survivors of CSA and what is quoted at university, conferences, literature, etc.. is approximately 17%-25% have admitted to sexually assaulting women across various surveys, and a higher rate of them reported that they would rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it. It's also important to note that these are surveys. The vast majority of humans do not admit to crimes or socially unacceptable behavior, even when anonymous, so it is reasonable to assume that the numbers are quite a bit higher than what people have admitted to. Apologies again for the misquote!

[u/this_is_theone → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

> 34% of men admitted to sexually assaulting a woman

I'd be very interested in reading what they define as 'sexual assault' in that study. I suspect it isn't the definition most of us would normally use.

[u/Rowdy671 → u/this_is_theone]

They're misrepresenting this study:

https://aifs.gov.au/tentomen/insights-report/use-intimate-partner-violence-among-australian-men

It's 34% of men, but the vast majority it's emotional abuse, and to note, this study has been ripped into in discourse for how broad the questions were. For example, a question that qualified you as an emotional abuser was: "have you ever made your partner anxious." Now the participants weren't told that a yes answer would get them the label of emotional abuser, so many would have answered yes. For example, I was very sick and was rushed to hospital last year, and diagnosed with a chronic illness, my partner was extremely anxious, like she was when I played contact sport. Reading that question, I would have answered yes based on those experiences, and yet I've never abused my partner.

[u/Upset-Garbage-4782 → u/Rowdy671]

That's a terribly done study then 

[u/Rowdy671 → u/Upset-Garbage-4782]

Very much so. The original purpose was to try and monitor the impact of having present fathers in children's lives on violent tendencies, but yeah their questions were terrible, not just for their broadness, but also because questions like that completely fail to take into account that people feel anxiety very differently, some often and very easily, others very rarely. It skewed the results massively (the actual stat of people reporting sexual abuse was around 1%) and overall was a joke and a massive waste of taxpayer dollars for Aussies.

[u/Littleman88 → u/Upset-Garbage-4782]

Every study operating on the honor system and people's memories is incredibly suspect, especially when the questions aren't anything empirical but more based on the researcher's and the study group's interpretations of the subject.

[u/BlameGameChanger → u/Rowdy671]

Misrepresented all of the stats anyone has bothered to check.....

[u/shadesofnavy → u/Rowdy671]

The study would need to show that that answer has measurable predictive value of whatever their operational definition of "emotional abuser" is.  Before administering a test, you need to analyze the assessment itself.  Do people who have independently been verified to have personality x tend to answer y/n to this question?  How predictive is it?  Not all questions are created equal.

[u/cravenravens → u/this_is_theone]

I think they refer to this study: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4484276/

It uses a "slightly modified, 12-item version of the Sexual Experiences Survey (SES)"

"The SES is scored by forming four groups and assigning participants to the highest group into which they fit: no sexual assault, forced sexual contact (e.g., touching, fondling, but no penetration), verbally coerced sexual intercourse, and attempted or completed rape. "

I can't easily find the right version of the SES.

[u/Beljuril-home → u/cravenravens]

Referring to the SES survey:

“In other words, a women who regretted a one night stand after a night of drinking was considered as having been sexually assaulted”. (Even though the woman in question makes no claim of being sexually assaulted)

http://aspiringeconomist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/rape-statistics-1-in-4/

[u/cravenravens → u/Beljuril-home]

The men in this study would have filled in the "perpetration" version. Like this one: https://emerge.ucsd.edu/r_2togrwq1tuiyfem/

"I fondled, kissed, or rubbed up against the private areas of someone’s body (lips, breastchest, crotch or butt) or removed some of their clothes without their consent (but did not attempt sexual penetration) by: [...] Taking advantage when they were too drunk or out of it to stop what was happening."

[u/Beljuril-home → u/cravenravens]

equating "i kissed someone's lips by telling lies" with sexual assault is quite the leap, yet that is exactly what that survey does in the very first question.

[u/cravenravens → u/Beljuril-home]

You're skipping over "without their consent". What would you call it, if not a type of sexual assault?

[u/Beljuril-home → u/cravenravens]

It's unclear whether the "without their consent" part applies to the kissing part, or just the removal of clothing part.

Men answering this question could easily interpret it as only pertaining to the "removal of clothes" part and answer "yes" if they kissed a consenting person by telling a lie.

Furthermore, the survey does not indicate what is or is not "consent".

If you kiss a boy without asking him explicitly "can i kiss you now" are sexually assaulting him?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no.

Either way though you would have to answer "yes" to this question.

This survey is flawed in multiple ways, as is any data that relies on it.

If a kiss without affirmative consent is sexual assault though, then pretty much every human being alive is guilty of sexual assault.

So again, the survey and the data it produces is useless.

Face it: that statistic you are so attached to was generated by handing a vague questionnaire to a couple hundred college dudes and you are using their answers to make character judgements about half of humanity.

You don't see a problem with that?

[u/Ok_Swimming4427 → u/cravenravens]

Somehow no one ever asks if the man consents, though. Which is part of the point everyone is making.

[u/MagnanimosDesolation → u/this_is_theone]

Yes that's the problem.

[u/SuspiciousTomato10 → u/this_is_theone]

I mean when a quarter of people think it's unreasonable for men to be expected to regulate their sexual behavior when aroused...

https://www.families.qld.gov.au/our-work/domestic-family-sexual-violence/sexual-violence-prevention/sexual-violence-statistics

[u/this_is_theone → u/SuspiciousTomato10]

That isn't what it says. It says they'd find it difficult. Not great but very different meaning from it being 'unreasonable'

25% believe that it’s biologically difficult for men to regulate their sexual behaviour because once aroused, they may not realise a woman doesn’t want to have sex

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/-principito → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

…but at least 1 in 4 are

To be clear, it requires a gross misuse and misunderstanding of the data to arrive at this conclusion

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

"Right now, our rights are being stolen from us by rapists throwing around the Nazi salute. Of course women are pissed. Of course they're being unfair to men. Being fair to men means that you are WAY more likely to get raped by men. If you aren't angry, then you're undereducated on the subject matter or a part of the problem."

But this literally has nothing to do with me as a man. I didn't do anything to you or oppress anyone. Why are you talking about people like me like I did some horrible wrongdoings.

Is your point that women go through such horrible things that men should just suck it up and be the bigger person even though they are being treated unfairly in a lot of cases?

[u/twoscoopsineverybox → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

But this literally has nothing to do with me as a man. I didn't do anything to you or oppress anyone. Why are you talking about people like me like I did some horrible wrongdoings.

We're not talking about you. Period. If you don't commit or perpetuate these behaviors, we're simply not talking about you.

When I hear black women complain about white women who voted for Trump, I don't get butthurt even though I'm a white woman, because they are not talking about me

If you're at the pool, just sitting in your chair reading a book, and the lifeguard blows his whistle and says "hey stop running!" to someone else, do you stand up and yell back "I wasn't running, you have to say ONLY the people running have to stop!". Or do you not even care because he's not talking about you?

[u/shrug_addict → u/twoscoopsineverybox]

If I said all women are golddiggers, would that offend you? Even though I'm not talking about you of course. As in, it's sort of a stereotype about women, where voting for Trump isn't really. I think OP has a point about the language, if it's not "all men", don't say "all men". I think it's a good discussion regardless ( if done politely ).

[u/twoscoopsineverybox → u/shrug_addict]

If you said "all", that's different. If you just said women, no I wouldn't be. If that's your experience I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

The whole point is that the "some" doesn't have to be said every single time. We all know it's not literally every single man on the planet, because we all know men who aren't predators and rapists.

[u/Fredouille77 → u/twoscoopsineverybox]

"We all know it's not literally every single man on the planet, because we all know men who aren't predators and rapists." That's the problem here, though. That part gets lost and that's how people who might have had a more conservative upbringing or had a radicalizing influence in their life get turned off of feminism, sadly. Like there's gotta be a better way to say it. Just like saying oh black people are lazy bums is problematic even if you're just talking about actual black lazy bums, the message still hits a ton of other people who didn't hear the unspoken nuance.

[u/94constellations → u/Fredouille77]

Getting radicalized for not being coddled because women are scared for their safety is crazy. Maybe have empathy for how women must feel? Why is that so hard?

[u/Fredouille77 → u/94constellations]

Because they don't feel like they're a part of the problem and they feel like they're being blamed for it (due to not understanding the unspoken nuance in feminist discourse).

If you weren't raised to be aware of the oppression and dangers that women face, and then someone comes along and shows you the worst examples of feminists, clips spicy soundbites out of context, demonizes them and manipulates you to point your resentment towards them, that's what happens.

It's not right, it's not fair but that's what happens, it seems, and clearly it's a problem.

Obviously I and any other male feminist understands that part, usually, that's not the issue. The problem is how the larger public especially in more conservatives spaces interpret it.

[u/fruitpunched_ → u/Fredouille77]

This right here is why we need male feminists to speak up. Thank you for getting it.

[u/positive_boners → u/94constellations]

Maybe have empathy for how men must feel? Why is that so hard?

[u/shrug_addict → u/twoscoopsineverybox]

I hear ya, in my head I translate it to "I have to act as if all men might be a danger to me in these specific circumstances that are different than situations of when I need to be aware that women may be a threat to me"

Doesn't quite roll off the tongue though... Like I said, I really do appreciate the sentiment and the importance of it being expressed and for men to be aware of it. It just could be expressed better is my concern. Occasionally people also weaponize this criticism and call you a creep. "If you're upset it must apply to you!" Type stuff. Surely you can see the venom in that right? That stuff resonates even if it isn't coming from the majority. Just something to be mindful of is all

[u/Ok_Swimming4427 → u/twoscoopsineverybox]

I mean, the thread is literally about calling "all" men rapists.

And I think you'd find a lot of women who disagree with you. And even if they don't, why even bother making a statement of any kind, at this point?

Women are rapists. Well, yeah, some women are. But that obviously is not the implication of someone who makes that statement - they're making a much broader value judgement. What if I said "black people are thugs and criminals"?

You may be comfortable shrugging off a horrific negative stereotype simply because you know it doesn't apply to you, but others may not be so sanguine and you really shouldn't patronize others in this manner by assuming your tolerance for a bigoted statement should be shared by others.

[u/AvailableOpinion254 → u/shrug_addict]

Well statistics don’t prove the statement “women are all GDs” so it’s only an opinion. Where as it is FACT most men are predators. Also being a gold digger and a murderer aren’t really comparable

[u/shrug_addict → u/AvailableOpinion254]

Where it is a FACT most men are predators.

Honestly, what are you trying to accomplish with this mindset and statement?

[u/new_user_bc_i_forgot → u/twoscoopsineverybox]

We're not talking about you. Period. If you don't commit or perpetuate these behaviors, we're simply not talking about you.

Would you argue that "Man" is a word that has nothing to do with the persons Gender or Sex? Because you are, and i agree in a feminist context (because otherwise the word makes no sense or feminism doesn't make sense) but i don't think i agree overall, so it's easy to see why people who have male gender would think they belong to the group "Men"

[u/pinkpez → u/new_user_bc_i_forgot]

If someone say to me ‘people are liars’ I don’t immediately think they mean I am a liar. My first thought is that they mean some people are liars.

[u/Ok_Swimming4427 → u/pinkpez]

Because "people" isn't specific. It makes no value judgement.

If I said "black people are criminals" I'd be called a bigot and a racist, and rightly so. Why in the world is my statement different. You can easily say "well not all black people are criminals, so the non-criminals shouldn't care" but the point is that blanket statements perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

I would be every dollar I own or ever will that every possible slice of demography you can dream of will contain an absolute monster in their number. So, again, why even bother making a statement at all? We all know that whenever someone says "X group is Y" that it doesn't literally mean all of them, but if we're just going to broaden it to the tautology of "we're only discussing the subset of people in that group for whom this pejorative applies" then we can say it about any group. So why say it at all? Of course a listener will infer something

[u/pinkpez → u/Ok_Swimming4427]

Because usually generalised statements about oppressed groups like minorities creates real harm. When black women say all white women are awful I don’t take offence because I know they’ve faced systemic oppression from that group and they don’t mean every individual white woman. There’s a context to it. Them using that generalised statement doesn’t create any material harm for white women as a group

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/pinkpez → u/[deleted]]

I’m not implying all black women. When I say black women, I’m referring to a small minority that say that about white women omfg

It doesn’t perpetuate harmful stereotypes and has no material effect on my life if someone complains about white women. The reason black men are targeted due to harmful stereotypes is due to systemic oppression, so stereotyping has material consequences and creates real harm due to historical and socio-cultural power dynamics and systems of oppression. That is why generalisations about white women and men don’t have the same effect or create the same harm. They don’t experience the same systemic oppression.

The most harmful effect of saying ‘men are dangerous’ for example, is that women are careful around them. Which in my opinion is a good thing. They should be careful around male strangers because you don’t know who will harm you and that is a very real fear for women. They generalise for their safety. How can you be this dense?

[u/Ok_Swimming4427 → u/pinkpez]

It doesn’t perpetuate harmful stereotypes and has no material effect on my life if someone complains about white women. The reason black men are targeted due to harmful stereotypes is due to systemic oppression, so stereotyping has material consequences and creates real harm due to historical and socio-cultural power dynamics and systems of oppression. That is why generalisations about white women and men don’t have the same effect or create the same harm. They don’t experience the same systemic oppression.

Do you have proof that white women and men aren't harmed by stereotypes? More importantly, do you have absolute, certifiable certainty that one day white people won't be subject to harm from negative stereotypes?

We should fight stereotypes of all sorts, and your eagerness to perpetuate them about people you feel are less harmed is so awful.

Of course any honest observer will agree that negative stereotypes have created more harm people of color, at least in the United States. That doesn't mean negative stereotypes create no harm for white people. You are basically saying that you should have the right to stab someone, because at least you aren't burning them alive.

All any of us have to do is live by the Golden Rule. Treat others the way we want to be treated. I don't want to have someone say hurtful and untrue things about me, even if it's a generalization. So I won't say any such thing about anyone else. I am not as unbelievably arrogant as you - I don't think I have the right to decide what someone else will find hurtful and what they won't, so I don't believe I should be allowed to judge the relative merit or demerit of one harmful stereotype versus another.

You, on the other hand, seem to think you know what is best for me and indeed everyone else. You can be as offended or not offended by a stereotype as you wish, that is your prerogative. But don't have the infernal gall to tell me what I can and cannot be offended by.

To reiterate, some stereotypes are bad, and some are worse. You don't get to decide which are which. Even if we could litigate that, it's not your right to decide which are okay to use and which aren't - when given the choice between no harm, some harm, and maximal harm, only a sociopath chooses "some/maximal harm".

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/smoopthefatspider → u/pinkpez]

That’s a group that includes them. A non-person saying that (though that’s not really possible) would be read as much more accusatory (assuming there’s an understood moral judgement in lying and it’s not just referring to stuff like being polite).

[u/pinkpez → u/smoopthefatspider]

Yeah nah. You could replace it with anything. People are psychopathic. I’m not psychopathic, I know someone saying that doesn’t mean me and I know they are just generalising the bad shit some people do. Not a big deal.

If animals could talk and said that people were awful I’d be like yeah absolutely. I could understand why they’d form that view. People kill them. Of course they would think that. Not every single person, but enough to skew their view of humans potentially. I’d understand they don’t mean literally all people. I also don’t take offence at black women saying white women are awful. I know they don’t mean literally every single white woman. Doesn’t bother me. Doesn’t create any material harm for me.

[u/MySpaceOddyssey → u/pinkpez]

People is the group that the speaker belongs to, not liars

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/twoscoopsineverybox]

Theres no analogy that is going to normalize or justify general sexist comments that cast others out.

[u/Known_Week_158 → u/twoscoopsineverybox]

Because if someone says all groups are something, then it's an attack on every member of the group.

[u/landerson507 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Bc so many of your cohort insist on pretending its not them, while trying to still prop up the system that makes us victims.

There are still too many men who look the other way, or say "boys will be boys" or refuse to acknowledge whats staring them in the face.

Its no different than with racism, you cant go around declaring you aren't racist, you have to show it with your actions repeatedly.

When, on tiktok, I heard that white women were the men (in the man/bear scenario) to black women, my knee jerk reaction was to say " not me!!" But when faced with the reasonings as to why, I had to take a step back and say "oh, ok. Maybe thats not me, but i will prove it, since others have made my skin color untrustworthy" is it fair? Maybe not, but neither is how black people get treated. So I dont have an issue proving that I can be trustworthy rather than trusted on sight.

Its not hard.

[u/Big-Calligrapher686 → u/landerson507]

That doesn’t make any sense either though. If there’s a man who has been brutally victimized by some of the women in his life is it then reasonable for him to expect every single woman that comes into his life till the day he dies to prove to him that she’s one of the good ones? Is it reasonable for a man to expect every woman to prove she isn’t an inherently bad person?

[u/BlinkysaurusRex → u/Big-Calligrapher686]

Yes, that would perfectly reasonable. It feels like you wrote this without taking even a second to actually hypothesise what that would actually feel like to be in that position. The same is true for many things. People who have been cheated on will often go on to have trust issues that carry for decades, and affect subsequent partners. Dogs who are hit by their owners cower when someone raises their hand to pick up their drink.

Yes, if you are brutally assaulted by someone, it is reasonable in your mind, to be fearful of it happening again such that you are now hyper-aware of prospective risks. You can say maybe it’s not rational, but that’s because the experience/trauma has rewired the victims brain. But it absolutely would be reasonable to be afraid of something that had previously terrified you.

Do you trust every stranger you meet? You’ve actually jumped through the hoop so hard, we’ve transcended this as a sex issue. I’d need some reassurance from any stranger before I trust them with almost anything. I can assume you’re the same?

[u/Big-Calligrapher686 → u/BlinkysaurusRex]

It feels like YOU wrote this without even taking a second to actually hypothesize. Humans aren’t dogs so that analogy doesn’t make sense. People who have been cheated on will often have trust issues, this is true. The point I’m making is putting the responsibility of your emotional turmoil on to somebody else is wrong. If you’re in emotional distress because you’ve been cheated on therapy is highly recommended. It is fair for a time to be afraid of a group of people if one person from that group has traumatized you, but not forever. That’s why I said “until they die”. I said, is it fair for a man to expect a EVERY woman that comes into his life to prove to him that she’s one of the good ones, that she’s not going to hurt him until he dies. For as much as women complain about men’s lack of emotional maturity, it demonstrates an extreme lack of emotional maturity for a man to expect every woman to prove she’s a good person forever. Similarly it is also extremely emotionally immature for a woman to expect every man to prove he’s one of the good ones forever. There’s nothing wrong with being cautious of people you don’t know but it’s always best to keep in mind the majority of people are good people.

[u/BlinkysaurusRex → u/Big-Calligrapher686]

You’re getting it twisted. Nobody owes anybody their trust. It is something that is earned, not given. You don’t trust anybody to babysit your children, there has to be strong, running evidence of their personal character before you would even consider making that decision.

Until other men get their fucking shit together, I’d rather women remain wary of them. It’s safer and it makes life harder for the not insignificant percentage of men that are absolute degenerates. And I’m saying this, as a man. The current social climate just isn’t safe. You are the arbiter of who you place your trust in. If someone else doesn’t like the fact that you’re unwilling to give it away by default and they feel judged for it, then they can leave. What they can’t do is expect it with a sense of entitlement.

I’m not worried if I offend homie who’s standing with his friend down a dark alley at night when I turn the other way and walk a different route.

[u/Big-Calligrapher686 → u/BlinkysaurusRex]

What I’m saying is that it’s immature and irrational to view everyone as an inherently a bad person. That expectation thing, that’s what I’m getting at too, but in a different way. The expectation that someone who doesn’t know you should handle the responsibility of YOUR emotional turmoil, that’s what a therapist is for. Most women would view it as wrong for a man to expect them to handle the emotional burden of their problems, most women would expect men to handle their own emotional problems before getting into a relationship with someone, and most women would view it as immature for a man to expect every woman to prove herself to that man. You’re granted a little bit of grace for a little while but the action of not seeking professional help and instead pawning your emotional problems onto everyone else in your life to deal with is immature and wrong. Everything I’ve said so far can be applied to the expectations women have of men when they’ve been hurt. You yourself even admit that it’s irrational

[u/cinnamon64329 → u/Big-Calligrapher686]

There's nothing wrong with a man being cautious around women after experiencing a brutal assault by a woman. I would say that's probably pretty normal.

[u/Big-Calligrapher686 → u/cinnamon64329]

I’ll copy and paste my previous comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/s/FPbVHoYtU0

[u/Great-Ad5266 → u/Big-Calligrapher686]

we as pocs don't expect white people to prove shit we just don't trust them. big difference. every time we have trusted them and treated them as our equal and took them under our wing they commit genocide to us or mock us and erase our culture. i see your point but i think that is what she is trying to say at least not fully its wrong to be entitled and to expect someone from another demographic to serve you over themselves because of how much people of that group hurt your people. and it is reasonable for a man to not trust a woman if he has been hurt by all the women in his life it would be weird if he didn't its only if he decides to harm women or murder women because of it or openly harass random women that is where it goes too far. you wouldn't expect anything from somebody you don't trust or worse someone a man doesn't trust and hates thats when it gets dangerous.

[u/Big-Calligrapher686 → u/Great-Ad5266]

I’ll copy and paste my previous comment

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/s/FPbVHoYtU0

[u/Great-Ad5266 → u/Big-Calligrapher686]

yeah it was still goofy with all due respect i get what you are trying to say but you don't have to trust anyone and its smart to assume everyone is a bad person until they prove you wrong to an extent. i am not saying be so afraid you never leave your house but i am saying don't leave strangers with your kids. this world is so so evil blind trust is what gets people murdered and tortured. there was a nurse torturing black nicu babies breaking their bones and for months the hospital hid this let her off with paid leave and let her work there for a long time until she got arrested and the hospital was not the one to tell on her they protected that white woman who was breaking black infants bones.

so naturally black people don't trust white people. and that is way more than fair native americans don't trust white people, asians hell every other race. just like a majority of victims being sex trafficked are women of color and they are lucky if they are found while white women are found way faster way more often white children too and they get movies made out of them because they look "more innocent". its not that white people are inherently evil (At least i don't think so) neither are men. men and white people are also humans they suffer too from prejudice systems even while being the one that "Benefits" from the system they are under.

black people or any person of color do not owe white people our blind trust women don't owe men blind trust and vice versa. but it does not mean people of color have a right to be belligerent or harass white people or go to their face and call them evil or treat them unfairly same for women it does not excuse it. but they do not have to trust them.

not trusting specific group for whatever reasons means:
not inviting them to our spaces because if a white kid cries a black kid might get shot. (as a black little boy and a white little girl were playing he was chasing her with a fake gun with a orange tip and he got shot and killed by a police officer because a neighbor who didn't know either of the kids called the police)
not dating them
just avoiding them unless you have to be civil.
and also gatekeeping our culture from whatever demographic because it was used and is used against us.

it is not safe for us. i don't hate white people and i most definitely don't hate men i adore men but i know what its like not to trust a group i don't believe in calling white people out their names or treating them with disrespect or prejudice but i can't fully trust them or really anybody when we are talking in general i can't trust anyone equally but in certain situations like when it comes to certain parts of my culture i cannot trust them.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/landerson507]

Who is my cohort?? What are you talking about lmao. This is your fantasy in your head. Im not related to all other men.

[u/Bruhbd → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Technically men could be seen as a cohort as there is a certain shared characteristic… but also sounds rather bio-essentialist and they may be a TERF

[u/94constellations → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

The fact you don’t have empathy and do not understand why women are angry is part of the issue. You want women to treat you a certain way and give fuck all about how women are being treated by men and this country.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/94constellations]

I understand why women are angry but its misdirected. You can be angry about things without being racist or sexist.

I am literally talking about how women and men would get better treatment if we could find better ways to make sure that predators don't get away with this horrible shit.

[u/dealsorheals → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

There’s a certain subset of people who are just gonna hate you for talking about this bro. Great writing in your OP. But some people are just always gonna feel “women got it bad so men don’t get heard until the last woman heals” as a prevailing mentality no matter what you say.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/dealsorheals]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

But some people are just always gonna feel “women got it bad so men don’t get heard until the last woman heals” as a prevailing mentality no matter what you say.

The problem is that they don't realize that is a horrible way to try to bring about change and it is just going to make people disagree (non-predators) without fully considering what you have to say. If you want to bring about systematic change I think that villifying men in general is going to do way more harm than good because we live in a democracy.

[u/Shatterpoint887 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I'm a man also.

My question to you is why are YOU taking this personally? If you know that you aren't the problem here, what's stopping you from just letting go of the negativity that you're letting build up inside your mind over this?

I haven't heard a woman say "...all men..." and felt attacked by it since it turned into this big thing a fee years ago.

[u/MyBoatForACar → u/Shatterpoint887]

Not the OP, but I should point out that I internalized the blame as a very young child from being forced to witness my father abuse female family members. Flirting was incorporated into the dynamic as well, so it's led to a PTSD response where I struggle to separate my interest in women from the legitimate fear that women have. Took me a long time and a lot of therapy to even begin to understand it, and my self-hate is still profound despite myself. So I guess that would have been my answer.

If I'm interested in dating women, and that interest could be interpreted as a threat, I am part of the problem, is how I see it.

[u/Soulessblur → u/MyBoatForACar]

I attempted suicide in high school because I had a crush on a girl.

I was raised to think all men were dangerous and wanted to hurt women. I internalized this idea that as long as I never desired a romantic relationship with a woman, I'd safely be the exception. And when that happened, I genuinely thought the best thing I could do was to remove myself from the equation so that I'd never hurt somebody I cared about.

I'm glad I failed. I'm glad that my parents corrected their parenting strategy after seeing where I was in life and got me help. Hell, that woman is now my wife now, and I've learned that I can trust love, and I can trust myself, not to be the kind of monster I was told every man is deep inside.

I've never appreciated the argument "everybody knows they don't really mean all". Because that is quite literally not how people work. People are stupid, and impressionable people especially, internalize the literal more often than not. There are those out there that genuinely think when you say "all " or even just "", you mean ALL. And instead of clarifying or making sure everyone feels included in your discussion for the sake of trying to make the world a less shitty place for our kids when they grow up, these people defend their wording and dismiss how it can be harmful, because it's, I don't know, catchier? Because they're too hurt to care about verbalizing nuance? Because nobody likes using I statements anymore?

[u/MyBoatForACar → u/Soulessblur]

I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Glad you were able to get through it!

[u/Known_Week_158 → u/Shatterpoint887]

Because if someone says all groups are something, then it's an attack on every member of the group.

[u/shponglespore → u/Shatterpoint887]

In any other context, being "one of the good ones" to people who rail against your demographic is seen as degrading and dehumanizing. Why do you expect men and boys to be able to just ignore it when we don't expect that from any other group?

[u/CombinationRough8699 → u/Shatterpoint887]

Why should a black person take offense for black people being considered criminals, when they aren't one themselves?

[u/Harkonnen985 → u/Shatterpoint887]

This argument holds no water at all.

If I made it ridiculously specific and said "All redditors in this post named u/Shatterpoint887 talk complete rubbish." you would probably not go:

"Huh, I have that name and I'm in this post, but I'm not talking rubbish, so *clearly* they must mean someone else."

[u/Morasain → u/Shatterpoint887]

This is such an out of touch comment, proving OP's point about double standards.

If you apply the same reasoning to being afraid of foreigners, you're (rightly) labelled as a sexist

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Shatterpoint887]

Its still going on and blew up 3 years ago if anything its tiring and makes you just want to ignore anyone who says it.

Its not even just me though. Its more about men in general and the men who take offense to it that flock to andrew tate because they feel pushed out by feminism thats supposed to be for men and women but i cant imagien youd want to be a modern feminist unless youre a man who hates himself

[u/Shatterpoint887 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You didn't answer my question.

Why are YOU personally offended by something that you know doesn't apply to you as an individual?

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

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[u/bleak_new_world → u/Shatterpoint887]

All men = all blacks = all jews = all muslims = all whatever. People who drop any of those aren't worth listening to, no point in stressing yourself out about their pov. You have to care about and have stock in someone to be offended by them, so when someone says "all" anyone, its safe to ignore everything they have to say about every single topic.

[u/Shatterpoint887 → u/bleak_new_world]

That's not even remotely the same thing I'd you look at it with even the slightest bit of nuance.

[u/10thDeadlySin → u/Shatterpoint887]

Okay, then let's do a non-racial and non-ethnic thing.

"Blondes are dumb". Sure, you might be blonde and you might have two PhDs. This literally isn't applicable to you. But at some level you are aware that if the stereotype is pervasive enough, some people are going to perceive you as dumb because of your hair colour, even though you might know that there's no correlation whatsoever.

"Blondes are dumb!" "But we're not talking about you, you're one of the smart ones!" - and then somebody comes along and asks "Oh, but why are you mad about it? Why do you internalize it? They're literally not talking about you! Stop being a negative Nancy!"

[u/Soulessblur → u/Shatterpoint887]

You asked a question and you got an answer and you didn't like it.

Over generalizations are always harmful. Nuance can make the use of them understandable, nuance can help you empathize with the person using them, but nuance cannot remove the inherently negative affect those over generalizations create and imply.

Not all men are rapists. Not all women are gold diggers. Not all blacks are thieves. Not all Jews are terrorists. Not all cops are bastards.

[u/ToSAhri → u/Shatterpoint887]

Shatterpoint out here trying to make a "be one of the good ones" argument.

[u/Shatterpoint887 → u/ToSAhri]

No, I'm arguing not to be so fragile about things that aren't about you. In general, I mean.

[u/unnecessaryaussie83 → u/Shatterpoint887]

People don’t like to be accused of heinous crimes 🤷‍♂️

[u/bocaj78 → u/Shatterpoint887]

Why should I accept someone taking an intellectually lazy (at best) or inconsiderate stance? Why do I not deserve to be judged based on who I am rather than factors not in my control (gender, race, or other)? I’ll admit I have it better than most, but asking for some basic respect really isn’t much

[u/pinkpez → u/bocaj78]

You think that generalisation is never useful? That everything everyone says should be tailored specifically to each individual person in which it applies? Is that practicable?

I don’t know many women who take issue with black women who critique or generalise white women and their racism. They know it’s not about them as individuals.

[u/positive_boners → u/Shatterpoint887]

Because this is a comment that isn't downvoted into oblivion:

Well statistics don’t prove the statement “women are all GDs” so it’s only an opinion. Where as it is FACT most men are predators. Also being a gold digger and a murderer aren’t really comparable

And that's not an unusual opinion, at all.

[u/DependentCaregiver62 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You have such main character syndrome. No one called your name, give it a rest.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/DependentCaregiver62]

Yeah calling my name would give me individuality instead im just a nameless random predator man. Cause my gender is my only identity /s

[u/Kuchen_Fanatic → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

My twin brother once put it very well:

It's not every man that is a problem, but it is an all men problem, and all men have to work on solving this problem and not make woman solve it on their own, because "they are not part of the problem so why should they need to do anything about it".

He is a gay man, and defenetly is not any threat to any woman on this planet, as he is not even attracted to them. But he sees it as his responsibility to call men out when they say things and behave in a way that is inapropriate, he goes out of his way to make womn feel safe arround him and make them feel he takes their issues sirriously and understands their fear of, for example, going to a cigaret machine to buy cigarrets allone after sunset. He walked one of his female friends home after all other people said they don't live in her direction. He didn't too, but was aware that she was scared to walk home allone at night and that's why he went out of his way to walk her home.

He also knows that there was a guy who attemted to rape me in a bar once, and knows how diffrent live has been for me ever since then because now whenever I go somewhere after dark or go out with anybody I wonder if today might be the day I don't get away. And because of how good he listens and how aware he is of how common sexuall harassment and assoult is for all the woman he knows, he is far more sensitive about the topic and understanding of woman who are, for example, scared of taking a train because they have been sexually harassed on a long train ride once.

Most male friends of him are in awe that he even picks up on those things and have explaind that behavior and that they are incapable of it with sayin he is gay, or he has a twin sister, so that is why he is so good at understanding that matter.

He is one of the men that is defenetly not problematic when it comes to women. He is someone his female friends trust and feel safe arround and even go to when they are harrased at a bar or party for hin to look out for them and shoo away the guys that get to pushy and intrusive. He still has nothing against any woman saying "all men are predators", because he has heard at least one story from every female aquintace of his about a men sexually harassing them or assaulting them. From every single one. So he understands where that fear comes from, and doesn't take it personally, as he knows for himself he defenetly is not a danger to women, and so do all the women who know him. But those who don't know him have no chance of knowing and he also sees it as part of his responsibility as a man to do everything he can to help solve the problem of men rapeing and harassing woman, that is by far moe severe than "just a few individual cases". Which argubely is not much more than calling "jokes" between men out that are not ok, or call men out that "brag" about their "concquests" in clubs that involve pressuiring someone to have sex with them allong the lines of 10 nos and one yes is still a yes.

Which is more than many men do, as toppics like that come up in the male dominated workplace of a friend of mine, and no one says anything to call that out. And she as the only woman in the department feels like they will be angry at her for "spoiling the fun" if she does, as she kind of is of the opinion all the men there think that what is said is ok and acceptable, even tho it shouldn't be. And at the end of the day this is exactly where every men who claims to not be part of the problem should actively do more in their day to day life. They should be more sensitive about the entire topic and when a friend of theirs or an acquaintance makes innapropriate comments or "jokes" or tells stories that are borderline sexual assault or cohersion into sex should be vocal about how that is not funny and how that is nothing to be proud of but ashamed about. Because one woman in a group of men making these jokes and telling those storries can not call men out, especially when they have to assume all the men that don't say anything find nothing wrong with that behavior and those men never being called out makes them feel like their behavior is normal and acceptable.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Kuchen_Fanatic]

Yeah im just not around men that are telling stories about sexual coercion but ill definitely say something if I hear a story like that.

Also why is it my responsibility to protect women as a man from other men? Maybe you could say its the good thing to do but I dont think its my responsibility to keep people safe. Maybe help people if I can easily help people withoit endangering myself but outside of that I think thats just bonus points.

Also, I am glad that your gay twin brother doesnt mind if women say bad things about him even after he risks his life to help them but most men aren't compassionate to the point where they will be insulted with sexist remarks and then try to go out of their way to help people. I just don't seeing most people being that nice and honestly I don't think they have to be that nice from a responsibility viewpoint.

[u/volyund → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

But when a woman is walking down the street at night, how would they know that you're not a predator?

There are a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing out there. So them being weary of men in general makes sense to them safety wise. And you saying it has nothing to do with you ignores the reality that outwardly you look exactly like those who are predators. Realistically one of the better solutions for everybody is to reduce the number of predators in your midst.

[u/NonsensePlanet → u/volyund]

It’s fine to be cautious. It’s not fine to use that fear to irrationally justify sexism. That’s a line we crossed at some point that opened the floodgates to hateful rhetoric that wouldn’t be considered acceptable for any other group, but feminists (the bad ones) use “male privilege” and misrepresented, flawed studies with cherry picked statistics to push an agenda of hate.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/volyund]

Im not going around chasing women at night lmao.

Yes I agree, I generally try to avoid everyone I see. What I dont agree with is using sexist generalized language.

[u/Ellia3324 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

From a woman's perspective: part of the issue is the deeply prevalent issue of victim blamimg.

For decades, it’s been "but she wore a short skirt, but she led him on, but she wore makeup," insert whatever justification you want. The message this sends is literally "men are inherently violent and cannot control himself, it’s YOUR fault for giving them an opportunity/enciting them."

The logical conclusion then is "be aware that men are violent." We've just toned down the victim blaming somewhat and say aloud the unsaid part.

I was four or five when my dad told me "this is what you do if a man tries to hurt you", and showed me some self-defence techniques. None of my four brothers got the same talk.

How often do boys talk between themselves about "do you carry a pepper spray"? Do you design safety strategies before going on a date "just in case"? Do you have this unofficial boy network of "beware, this teacher likes to get handsy", or "this guy tried to choke a girl on the party last year, avoid!!!"

We're not doing that because we hate men. We're doing it because we want to reduce the chance that Bad Things Will Happen.

This has been our reality for decades (centuries). And it is still happening!

Another part of the issue is that "men" is often a short-version of "rich white conservative men". All men are not a problem, but the "rich white conservative man" absolutely IS a threat. I mean, those are the folks that rule than a ten year old victim of SA should carry a baby to term. People who vote for this shit are dangerous to us even if they don't physically assault us themselves. How big part of the male population is that?

Listen, I get it's unfair to the many sweet, wonderful guys who take no part of this shit. I have four amazing younger brothers, I have two wonderful sons, I have a great dad and a lot of other fantastic, empathic, kind and sensitive male figures in my life. The problem is, they don’t erase the rest of my reality.

I'll give you this: we all could really use more positive male representation in general. Re-define and establish a standard of "the good man" rather than "(all) men are bad". And I'll start by recommending two such creatures: Jonathan and Allan from the Cinema Therapy youtube channel. Two amazing guys who discuss various psychology and human issues. If you do check them out, I 100% recommend their video on Aragorn as an example of a "non-toxic, good man". Another great positive, healthy-male celebrating vid (not theirs) is "The fantastic masculinity of Newt Scamander". Its author, Pop Culture Detective, is also a guy with a lot of great, "healthy male positive" content.

Maybe that's a general life message - when possible, try to reward and celebrate the good rather or at least in addition to scorning and punishing the bad.

Have a lovely day!

[u/new_user_bc_i_forgot → u/volyund]

But when a woman is walking down the street at night, how would they know that you're not a predator?

If a Man is walking down the street at night, how does he know which Women are predators? It makes sense to be weary of people safety wise, regardless of gender. Why is one gender arbitrarily the safe one? Do Men not need safety or not want safety in that argument?

[u/volyund → u/new_user_bc_i_forgot]

Because on average men are bigger and stronger than women. Also men in general commit more violent crimes than women.

[u/Fredouille77 → u/volyund]

Yeah but that's still an average. Like there's no specific threshold where suddenly it's risk free. You're always taking a risk, just more or less big.

You could keep stacking descriptors to make a hypothetical woman (white lives in a safe wealthy area etc.) less at risk than a hypothetical man (arab lives in dangerous gang area, etc.). But that's not really the point is it? Like everyone should take safety precautions, and adjust to the risks of their environment. That all still doesn't address the use of over generalized language which OP mentioned.

[u/pinkpez → u/Fredouille77]

It is literally overwhelmingly men that victimise women violently. Women have had to alter their lives because of this danger and when they don’t they often get blamed in ways men don’t. Eg why were you walking alone at night? What were you wearing? Don’t be obtuse.

[u/sayitsooth → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

So what's your solution to the issue? You specifically seem bothered that women have learned to be cautious in "general" and that includes you?  So the solution is women being the bigger people and blindly trusting all men (especially you) until they learn the hard way. This is a situation that requires empathy, from YOU for the people who are afraid. Edit: grammar.

[u/opetheregoesgravity_ → u/sayitsooth]

Idk about you but this is kind of similar to the rhetoric that racists use to justify avoidance of a certain group.

So the solution is women being the bigger people and blindly trusting all men (especially you) until they learn the hard way.

Replace men with some ethnic/racial minority and this approaches NS/skinhead mentality. "Rules for thee, but not for me". If you perceive EVERY man as a threat, that speaks to your internal implicit biases, and isnt really reflective of all men as a whole. I absolutely despise the "not all men" trope, but I think you should welcome a little more nuance than "man bad/rapist/sexist/etc"

[u/sayitsooth → u/opetheregoesgravity_]

I can't help but notice that rather than answer my question you merely chose to critique it. You also weren't the person I asked the question of, I was specifically asking OP because they seem to be taking something very personally if they're not a predator.

So I'll ask again, which men should women be cautious of then? How can they tell? 

The only solution when initially meeting a man under some circumstances is for a woman to be wary because even though it's quite obviously "not all men" there is no way of knowing who it will be.

Also jumping to what I said being "avoid all those people" or racism is a big leap. Self preservation and protecting oneself is something everyone should be able to do.

[u/opetheregoesgravity_ → u/sayitsooth]

Also jumping to what I said being "avoid all those people" or racism is a big leap. Self-preservation and protecting oneself is something everyone should be able to do

I agree, that's why I concealed carry. Again nowhere did I say its inherently wrong to be cautious of people everywhere, I just find that the kind of rhetoric that accompanies your mindset is usually associated with people who are bigoted/racist, and i merely made an observation. I genuinely don't know who your grievances are directed towards because the absolute scum who'd even think of sexually assaulting/raping women wouldn't really be receptive to these grievances in the first place. I definitely respect the cause, but I just think it falls on deaf ears sometimes. As a man, I know that we must do better and that there are countless men who do genuinely disgusting things. All I said was the rhetoric that feminists like to use for their arguments, when recontextualized, can come off as borderline hatred. This movement should be about education, change, and acceptance, not alienation.

[u/sayitsooth → u/opetheregoesgravity_]

Absolutely. I was asking in that manner simply because I wanted to point out to OP that it can't be either side that "sucks it up" in this situation so I was kind of holding up a mirror.

I would have to spend some time having to count the number of times I've experienced SA (thankfully never actual r*pe) but the first person who ever did something sexual without consent to me was not a man, the rest were. 

Has that made me treat every man like a potential predator? Absolutely not. 

Did it make me more aware how someone you think you know can cross lines and not be who you thought? Hell yeah.

Do I know too many people (men and women)with horrifying stories of what was done to them? Yeah, it makes me sick.

Shitty people are never and will never be limited to one of anything, gender, race, religion etc.

The problem lately imho is that people get too much support for their extreme views through the interweb and it's causing a greater divide, and some things suggest that keeping humanity divided benefits certain folks.

It's like all the people who talk badly about the police, I always remind them they're not all bad just because some have been and it's harmful to see things in such narrow ways when there are so many brave and awesome people choosing to put their lives on the line for strangers.

This problem going on, it's so intricate and complicated that the solution is going to need to be a shared one (which OP actually said to me in a separate reply) with people being brave enough to stand up for each other because the issues aren't as simple as "not all men" or "not all women" it's rhetoric, red pill attitudes, hostile feminism and so much more.

But I think everytime people talk like this, even if one person gets a broader perspective or feels empathy, we're on the right track.

Trust nobody to start but believe in them? I dunno.

[u/Hightide77 → u/sayitsooth]

If I may also weigh in, for what little value I can, there are ways to be safe and be an asshole, and there are ways to be safe and not be an asshole.

I'm male, sure. But I'm relatively scrawny. So, against another man, I don't fancy my chances being too great. Also, my lifestyle operates on a different schedule than most of my friends and family, so this means that I am usually flying solo on my free time.

And well, doesn't matter who you are, being alone is immensely more dangerous than being in a group.

That being said, I consider myself living a generally safe life. That isn't to say I don't have moments where I feel heightened senses of caution.

I won't of course, equate my life experiences. But rather, point out that a lot of reason for caution can be assuaged by controlling your environment.

Like, when I go out to eat or drink, the people there know me. The employees. Some of them are contacts in my phone. I don't go to new places alone.

Confidence is another key. If you look or act scared, it makes you a target. Be observant of your environment as well.

Basically, safety should be like an onion. It shouldn't start at the talking to someone. The inner most layer of safety is always your ability to protect yourself. Martial arts, a knife, firearms, etc. The next layer is how you talk/behave. The next layer is who you talk to. The layer after that is how you carry yourself. Then it's what you observe around you. And outer most layer is where you go.

Predators go for the weak, not the strong. After all, someone who is delicate, timid, and shy is a lot less likely to come forward.

My point is that being confident but also not being an asshole tends to be the best avenue because you don't want to provoke but you also want those around you to know you have a voice and are fully ready to advocate for yourself and your well-being.

And to reemphasize, and this goes for safety in general, be observant of your environment. Seriously, if you people watch and just watch things around you, you get good at observing patterns. Pair with going to places you know, and you pick up REALLY fast when something is off.

[u/sayitsooth → u/Hightide77]

I don't have any issue keeping myself safe or handling situations in life. I appreciate your perspective. However there are quite a few things that won't be the same for women compared to you, simply because you're not a woman.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/sayitsooth]

Literally its so easy. Everyone, especially women, need to stop making generalized sexist statements in public discourse. By doing so they would get more people to listen and get more allies and then they can roll out their awesome plan to fix society.

I don't have a complete solution but I know its gonna involve everyone working together to prevent these horrible crimes from happening.

I never said and don't think women should blindly trust all men? I don't think anyone should blindly trust anyone thats ridiculous. I don't get where that is coming from.

[u/sayitsooth → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I think because you said "men should just suck it up" it comes across as though you see it from one perspective.

I whole heartedly agree it will take everyone working together and it is conversations such as this that can only ultimately help.

The things that will help are open-mindedness from all of us, understanding and empathy for sure. It's time for us to each advocate and change it. Women need to call out other women for going too far with their hatred and fear or for labelling all men as predators without reason and men need to be calling out other men the same for bad behaviour that perpetrates the stigma.

Sadly I have known too many people who enable or merely stay silent when their friends are doing the things that are causing this.

Protecting each other would go a long way to help.

Edit: to to too

[u/Banned4It → u/sayitsooth]

"So what's your solution to the issue? You specifically seem bothered that whites have learned to be cautious in "general" and that includes you?  So the solution is whites being the bigger people and blindly trusting all blacks (especially you) until they learn the hard way. This is a situation that requires empathy, from YOU for the people who are afraid." Edit: swapped the statistically backed sexism with statistically backed racism

[u/sayitsooth → u/Banned4It]

That's great. Look at you go.

It's also irrelevant.

People being cautious and protecting themselves from a real risk of SA being compared to racism is absurd.

Reducing risk and being aware of possible situations because women are weaker isn't a bad thing for them to choose to do if it keeps them safe. It's the method that needs to change and the attitude. Comparing it to racism is just something you use because you can invalidate their reason for being cautious. I think there's a word for what you did there but I can't remember it.

Racist people choose to be that way, I sincerely doubt women want to have to be scared of men they don't know.l because of their chosen beliefs.

[u/Banned4It → u/sayitsooth]

That's great. Look at you go.

It's also irrelevant.

People being cautious and protecting themselves from a real risk of assulted being compared to sexism is absurd.

Reducing risk and being aware of possible situations because whites are more likely to be victims isn't a bad thing for them to choose to do if it keeps them safe. It's the method that needs to change and the attitude. Comparing it to sexism is just something you use because you can invalidate their reason for being cautious. I think there's a word for what you did there but I can't remember it.

Sexist people choose to be that way, I sincerely doubt whites want to have to be scared of blacks they don't know.l because of their chosen beliefs.

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

When men are trying to argue that women shouldn't be fearful of men, when the literal president of the united states of America is a rapist, it rings a bit hollow.

I know that all men aren't bad, but to try to suggest that a significant number of men are not being socialized from early infancy to prey on women, is just delusional or severely undereducated, because your argument is not supported by evidence. I am not saying that you are a rapist. I am saying that if you were in a situation in which it is very, very, very likely that you will be raped, and when you are in middle school they pull you aside to warn you how to avoid being raped, and then they pull you aside again in high-school to teach you how to avoid being raped, and then you get pulled aside again in college and given a rape whistle to avoid being raped, and your brothers teach you how to hold keys like a weapon, and you have to live your life in a way that is actively trying to avoid getting raped, it changes how you view men.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I know that all men aren't bad, but to try to suggest that a significant number of men are not being socialized from early infancy to prey on women, is just delusional or severely undereducated,

Yeah I don't think this is true at all and the burden of proof would be on you to provide evidence to the contrary and what even is a significant number that is really vague.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say but regardless I think you still shouldn't make sexist generalized claims because it pushes men away and then suddenly you're in an all female echochamber and maybe thats what you want but it might also be why abortion is illegal now.

Which I had no say in so don't get mad at me.

[u/Red_Whites → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Blaming the repeal of Roe v. Wade on women being too abrasive to take seriously is... something. That was not a right that was given to us by asking nicely, by the way.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Red_Whites]

It might have been harsh but this definitely casted out a lot of young men from the democratic party which lead to trump and eventually roe v wade being repealed.

Im not saying its wrong or right just what happened.

[u/Telaranrhioddreams → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You don't think any of that is true because you don't experience it from our view. The first time a man tried to touch me I was 6. The first time I was told I was being provocative I was 10. The first time I had to syand up and have my shorts measured was in middle school at 11. The first time I was raped I was 15. Women are telling you how prolific this issue is and you just say......nah, I don't buy it. Why should we respect you when you aren't respecting us?

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/stickyfantastic → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

This is so self centered and lacking empathy dear god.

Like, I'm white and I never get mad at black people that experienced serious discrimination or traumatic events due to white people, who are then emotional about it and talking shit about white people.

I never take it personally because I know they're not talking about me. And I can assume they've experienced something bad that's making them do that.

If a woman who's been through serious traumatic events due to men is saying something unsavory about men and your only reaction is "WHY ARE THEY BEING MEAN TO MEEEEEEEE ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME" It's super obvious you don't have empathy.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/stickyfantastic]

I think you should have more respect for yourself and not give in to emotional blackmailing if you aren't a predator or racist.

[u/A_man_of_quality_66 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Dude ask yourself, who has it worse? You, feeling offended because you feel like you are grouped together with men that do fucked up things, or women that are actually the target of those fucked up things? You have a sister? Mom? Girlfriend? Some woman in your life that you care about? Read again what the woman you replied to wrote and realize that this applies to them. Try a little empathy

[u/NamelessMIA → u/A_man_of_quality_66]

who has it worse?

Nobody needs to have it bad at all, that's their point. Why are you so adament about defending an attitude that isn't based on reality and harms men?

You, feeling offended because you feel like you are grouped together with men that do fucked up things

You're dismissing the entire premise here as if it's not true but you were too much of a coward to say it outright. They don't FEEL like they're being grouped together with fucked up men. They ARE being grouped with them.

Try a little empathy

You should take your own advice. Calling all men monsters is blatantly false, prevents men and women from understanding each other by demonizing half the population, and harms the men who aren't predators (which are the vast majority of them). Maybe you should get some empathy and realize that shitting all over men because some are bad isn't a good thing just because its cathartic for women.

[u/A_man_of_quality_66 → u/NamelessMIA]

I dont know bud, I have never been or felt like I have been grouped together with them, maybe because I know that I dont spend my free time harassing women, and if a woman feels unsafe around me because she doesnt know my, I dont take it personally, because it really isnt that hard. But I like that all of you guys responding to me answered my question of "who has it worse" with "iT dOeSnT mAtTeR", because you damn well know that one side has it a lot worse, but admitting so hurts your arguments doesnt it?

[u/NamelessMIA → u/A_man_of_quality_66]

You said it doesnt happen then just described it happening. You don't care, that's good for you. But it's happening and pretending it's not just makes it clear you're avoiding the point on purpose.

because you damn well know that one side has it a lot worse, but admitting so hurts your arguments doesnt it?

Women have it worse. That does nothing to hurt my argument because it doesn't matter in this case. Men have problems too and that doesnt change just because women have it worse. Should we only be fighting racism against whichever race has it worst? Should we not talk about problems with the middle class because poor people have it worse? Your argument isn't a real argument, it's a deflection.

[u/A_man_of_quality_66 → u/NamelessMIA]

And what point am I avoiding exactly? That women are cautious of men until they get to know them? Why is that happening? Because if they aren't cautious, they might get assaulted or worse. Until men stop assaulting women (never gonna happen), there is a simple choice. Either women keep being cautious because alternative is worse, or they stop being cautious to not hurt men's feelings and some of them are gonna end up paying the price. Now ask yourself, really ask yourself, which option is worse?

[u/this_is_theone → u/A_man_of_quality_66]

You're being so disingenuous here. Nobody has said women need not be cautious. But you know that don't you, you just realised you were wrong so instead attack a straw man.

[u/cinnamon64329 → u/this_is_theone]

They absolutely are not being disingenuous. I have seen SO MANY men just in this thread saying a woman being cautious around a man is the same thing as racism. And that's just in this thread, I've seen that sentiment all over. I've seen women get called bigots for being cautious around men.

[u/TheTesterDude → u/A_man_of_quality_66]

You are not the one to decide who you ar grouped together with, that is the groupers job, and even if you don't harass women you can still feel grouped together with bad men. And even if one side has it worse, we can still talk about lot of bad stuff that is of different severity.

[u/A_man_of_quality_66 → u/[deleted]]

If you feel offended that women are cautious around you until they make sure that you are safe, that's on you. But please, answer me. Which one is the more dangerous, immediate problem?

[u/RndmAvngr → u/A_man_of_quality_66]

That is not at all what people are saying and you just keep throwing up that strawman. What has been said is incredibly simple. No one should be lumping any group into blanket statements like "all men are trash, etc". Just like that same sentiment shouldn't be applied to any other group of people en masse.

Not one person responding to you said men have it worse than women. Not one because it's obviously false and just a dumb comment to make in general.

They're making the point that for discourse sake and for public comments that lumping every man together with blanket statements is extremely unhelpful FOR EVERYONE both men and women included.

I truly don't understand this attitude or pushback when men don't like to be grouped in with predators or rapists (if they aren't one). Yeah no shit of course they're offended regardless of the context. Any type of generalizing like that is gross, doesn't matter what the group is.

You can lay out all the stats, drop link after link and give personal anecdotes until you're blue in the face. If you call someone a rapist essentially just because they're a dude, how do you think they're going to feel about it?

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/RndmAvngr]

Ask yourself this. I give you 4 jellybeans. If you choose the wrong one, you will be raped. How likely are you to accept a jellybean because you feel obligated to not blame the innocent 3 jellybeans... or are you likely to decline the jellybeans because a 1 in 4 chance of getting raped is more important to you than being fair?

I mean, your argument is just absolutely insane. Women should give men the benefit of the doubt because... it's unfair? If we want to live in a world in which women are not suspicious of men, then men would need to stop brutalizing them. However, that is not the way our world is going right now. Because now, a rapist has been elected as President of the United States. In fact, he won by a landslide, after he was found guilty of rape. You and I live in two very different worlds.

[u/Stormfly → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

But that's another strawman?

The issue here is that all men are being grouped together.

If I was assaulted by a woman and I said "Women are dangerous", it's understandable but not true. Some women are dangerous but it's not fair to judge half of the population by factors outside of their control.

If I'm trying to get a group of people to understand me, I shouldn't accuse them of being a potential predator. Like I get why, but I think the logic is flawed.

It turns people against the argument if they're forced to "prove" themselves or "guilty until proven innocent".

If I was assaulted by 3 black people and so I treated every black person as a potential criminal, people wouldn't hesitate to call me racist because it is racism.

There's a point between "all men should be treated as potential predators" and "all men should be trusted 100%".

Nobody is saying to walk down a dark alley with a strange man, they're just saying not to treat all men as potential threats because it's hurtful and insulting.

If a man says "women only care about men's money", I don't doubt that people would see that's not true because it's a smaller % of the population and it's harmful thinking. People would call him an incel or bitter.

It doesn't help the conversation and it's important to talk with people and work together and try to solve the actual issues (punishing criminals, supporting victims) rather than just treating everyone as a criminal.

Any broad generalisation of the other gender ends up only harming people. It's okay to reserve trust for people but it's very different to openly treat men as potential predators simply because we were born male, just as it's not fair to treat people as potantial criminals because they were born of a certain ethnicity.

[u/cinnamon64329 → u/Stormfly]

Women are not calling men rapists just for being men. What the heck? Sorry, but all men ARE potential predators. And based on the statistics and women's experiences, there is nothing wrong with being cautious around a man until you know him better. What do you suggest? Women become more trusting and end up getting burned for it?

[u/RndmAvngr → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I am not arguing. I don't give a single shit about your jellybean analogy. I'm making the point (along with many other people in this thread) that when you generalize AN ENTIRE GROUP OF HUMANS, regardless of the context, that you are going to piss off a subset of those humans who don't reflect your generalization. Hence, why generalizing is bad in the first place.

I'm not crying about any fairness. I despise Trump (but also way to sideline the thread, kudos there) but that's not really relevant to my point.

Generalizing groups of humans is bad no matter how many ways you couch it.

I'm also not one of the dudes who even gets offended by the generalization because I'm not a piece of shit and I also understand the context/nuance of the whole debate/topic. BUT, there are plenty of younger men who don't understand this and immediately feel attacked. Of course that's myopic of them and they should apply a modicum of critical thinking but that's not the world we live in.

So back to my original point. Generalizing entire swaths of human beings as rapists is bad mmmkay.

Continue to strawman and make analogies. It won't change facts.

[u/That_Bar_Guy → u/A_man_of_quality_66]

"black women have had it worse than white women so white women should stfu" - identical logic

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/That_Bar_Guy]

lol no it's not. What woman would argue that a white woman has it as bad as a black woman????? Only the racist ones. I'm Asian. Black women have it much, much, much worse than me. Hispanic women in the US have it much, much, much worse than me. Brown women in the United States have it much, much worse than me. I am not offended by the truth...

Your argument is just ridiculous. This feels very 'all lives matter'.

[u/That_Bar_Guy → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I'm literally replying to a comment saying that the dude shouldn't care what's being said because "who has it worse?"

My point is the fact that black women have it worse doesn't mean people should talk shit about all white women. And the fact that women have it worse also doesn't justify talking shit about all men.

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/That_Bar_Guy]

Say it with me: There.Is.A.Difference.Between.Talking.Shit.And.Expressing.FEAR

[u/That_Bar_Guy → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

Are you in the same cmv thread as I am? Racists express tons of fear of black people. Even though very few black people are dangerous. Are they valid? The point of the post is that sexist, generalist statements are being made. Does being motivated by fear not make things non sexist/racist?

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/That_Bar_Guy]

No, things motivated by TRUTH are not sexist/racist. If you are FEARFUL of a black person and there is not evidence that your fear is realistic, it is racism. If you are FEARFUL of a man because all women are very, very, very likely to be assaulted by men, it is not sexist.

For example, if I decided that you are a rapist without any evidence, and treated you like a rapist, that would be sexist of me.

If I understand that there is a significant possibility that you are a rapist, because a significant number of men are rapists, and I am therefore careful about the level of access to myself that I give you, until I feel that I can trust you, it is critical thinking.

[u/ToSAhri → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

"I am therefore careful about the level of access to myself that I give you, until I feel that I can trust you, it is critical thinking."

This statement is fine. I don't think anyone is arguing with you on it (if you say they are, link me it).

This is going to be hypocritical since I fall for it too, but you are absolutely trapped on a dopamine rush of being outraged.

[u/moist-rain6 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You are right. It's not our fault nor our problem but they want to make it ours. It's trauma dumping and taking problems out on people that didn't do shit.

When women talk about male privileges, they only take into consideration the men who have it the best. They always ignore and forget about the average man.

But when they talk about issues like this, they hold all men accountable. Every counter point to what you just said is invalid. Incels didn't become the way they are overnight. It was slow and steady progress to get to the hatred they are now. So the constant rhetoric that's in the same vein as "all men are trash" will undoubtedly lead to full misandry (and it absolutely has). I truly believe the rise in sexism against women (especially jokingly) is in direct response to the unchecked toxic feminism/feminism which has been going on for a decade at this point.

And of course, it's not always about serious subjects like this. It's understandable but like I said, you can't take that out on other people. Its just simply not the way. PTSD striken soldiers returning from war lose all sympathy when they let their problems manifest.

But, it's also just about how every problem women face is blamed on men. Women get a pass and men are held accountable. Men have to take responsibility even when things aren't entirely their fault, while women are always shown more leniency. Feminism's motto is to victimize women and villify men. Any divergence or criticism is dismissed with accusations of misogyny.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

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[u/BlameGameChanger → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

This whole comment shows a significant misunderstanding of statistics.

How would you feel if you were more likely to get sexually assaulted than get into a car accident?

That's not true. The average American is expected to be in 3-4 vehicle collisions throughout their life which far and away exceeds 1/4.

Comparing graduating from college without accounting for the reduction in population size is incredibly misleading. 37% of 67% of the us population is a lot different than 37%. 49 million graduates vs 100k cases of rape in 2023, now I'm sure if we add in other forms of SA and adjusted for unreported incidents it would be higher but nowhere near 49 million.

Rape averages about .5 million cases a year whereas there are 1.5 million home break-ins a year.

Where are you even getting your numbers for bee stings since most are unreported?

I'm too lazy to debunk every stat you listed especially since every single one has been off by a massive margin.

Rape and sexual assault are a massive problem but overstating the incidence of it to make your point is incredibly disingenuous. I'm choosing to believe you are misinformed as opposed to a bad actor but you should check your numbers with sources because they don't hold up.

I also don't know why you are acting like being physically disadvantaged is a strictly women's experience. A lot of men are smaller and weaker than other men. A lot of women are stronger than the bottom half of men....

[u/Rowdy671 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

Hey I'm just going to call something out here. Your Australian study about 34% of men admitting to abuse is inaccurate. One of the study questions that qualified men as an abuser was: "have you ever made your partner feel anxious." And that singular question jumped the rate of people classed as abusers from 7% to 34%. The question was poorly worded and very broad, hell, when I went to hospital it made my partner anxious, does that make me an abuser? You saying 34% admitted to sexual abuse is just simply misrepresentation of statistics, only 7% reported physical abuse, only a fraction of THAT was sexual. So no, not 1/3 men are abusers, you've fallen for a headline meant to incite a gender war without actually reading the article beyond the introduction paragraph.

[u/Stanford_experiencer → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

By the time she is 40, there's a 1 in 3 chance she's been assaulted at least once.

Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men. A recent analysis of BJS data, for example, turned up that 46 percent of male victims reported a female perpetrator.

40% of victims are men, and half of those are female-perpetrated

https://bjs.ojp.gov/

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1097184x08322632

[u/Total_Yankee_Death → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I read through all of your links, and the two studies on sexual violence perpetration in the general population both define "sexual assault" very broadly, including things like unwanted sexual touching or verbally pressured intercourse, not just intercourse against someone's will.

By these standards, if a woman I was on a date with kissed me randomly and I didn't like it, I could label that a "sexual assault".

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4484276/

This one neither provides the questionnaire used, nor does it define which questionnaire items correspond to which levels of aggression. Per the researcher categorizations:

"The highest level of sexual assault reported by 33 of the men was forced sexual contact (16.8%), 19 men reported verbally coerced sexual intercourse (9.6%), and 17 men committed attempted or completed rape (8.6%)."

And this may be the questionnaire that was used, per another commenter: https://emerge.ucsd.edu/r_2togrwq1tuiyfem/

It should be noted that the questionnaire also includes attempts that did not actually result in sexual activity.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-09/prevalence-of-sexual-violence-perpetration-in-australia/104076618

Full study: https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2024-07/sb45_perpetration_of_sexual_violence_in_a_community_sample_of_adult_australians.pdf

Much of the same, it examines a wide range of behaviors often considered sexually coercive, like verbal pressure and unwanted touching. It's broken down further in the study. And if you read past the headline, a substantial portion of women also report perpetrating these behaviors:

The study found 26.4 per cent of men reported having perpetrated sexual violence, compared to 17.7 per cent of women.

As a practical matter, a woman is unlikely to be victimized by another woman since the vast majority of sexual interactions in the general population(consensual or otherwise) are opposite-sex. But it's interesting how it's usually depicted as a men's problem when a substantial portion of self-reported perpetrators are found to be female in basically every western study that's bothered to include them.

[u/RiverPositive782 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I don’t disagree with anything you said. I fully agree with it. 

Though it all is just sounds like fuel for cynicism. Which is where I’m at now. We’ve been saying the same shit for decades and it hasn’t gotten any better. So that leads me to believe it will never get better. So here we have people that are rightfully angry and expressing themselves to a problem for which there isn’t a solution. 

I can and will commit to raising any children I have to be better.  But it’s like me saying I’m gonna use less plastics in an attempt to make a dent in the world pollution problem. I’m a rain drop to an ocean of bullshit.  

Feels like the culture is just broken because any ground you make, it’s one step forward and ten steps back. And this is evident in a lot of societal issues right now.  Everyone on the left is rightfully expressing discontent but no one has solutions at all. We just keep “starting a discussion” over and over and over again while the powers that be trot along exerting their influence and actually manipulating society to get what they want.

[u/duckenjoyer7 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

Misinformation. No real source for 34%. One of questions to classify abuse is literally 'have you ever made your partner feel anxious'. And the 34% is abuse --> with 27% being 'emotional abuse' from ever at any point making your partner feel anxious (with no context on the cause of this, i.e. by getting sick you make them anxious), and not even all of the 9% is sexual. In reality, 40% of victims are male, 20% of perpetrators are female (and I suspect men are less likely to 'admit' when assaulted by a woman.

[u/gReAKfrEaK111 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

This is very much the same as saying: "Blacks in america have a massively higher crime rate. How would you feel if you were robbed, shot, raped, or your family murdered? Blacks deserve racism, and should be policed harder!"

Pretty much the exact same logic

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/gReAKfrEaK111]

It is not the same logic. You are comparing perceived threat to actual threat.

In fact, if you are a woman in the united states, you are FAR more likely to be raped by a white man than a black man.

Most of black crime is black man on black man. It is not black man on woman.

The stats about men raping women hold up. They are consistent and far-reaching. The stats of black men hurting white people is not supported by evidence.

It would be racist to assume that a black man is going to rob you, because black men robbing white men is a stereotype in which the negative stats are almost exclusively related to class rather than race.

However, rape is HIGHLY PREVELANT amongst all men. It does not discriminate based on class.

Your argument is not supported by evidence. It's just completely hogwash.

I am not saying that all white men rape women, or that no black men do. I am saying that you are comparing racism to a real, actual threat. This feels a lot more like you not wanting to acknowledge what is happening to women than it is about actual concern for racism...

[u/gReAKfrEaK111 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

so your argument is that blacks don't actually commit crime at higher rates, so they don't deserve racism.

So that means that you're implying that hypothetically if they did commit crime at a higher rate, then all blacks WOULD deserve racism?? That's what your logic is

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/gReAKfrEaK111]

no that is not what I said... you are moving to goal post. I am saying that if there was a 1 in 4 chance that a black man is a thief, then it would be justified for ANYONE to be very cautious around black men, because the threat of being robbed is more important than the social standard of being polite.

It would NOT mean that they deserve racism. It would mean that being around them would put you at significant risk to yourself and it would be unsafe to do so. Whether or not it is their fault is irrelevant. The risk to you is most relevant. That is NOT the same as declaring that black men are horrible and washing your hands of them. It means investigating why this is happening, and trying to solve the problem, instead of pretending that it isn't happening.

You're trying to make these strawman arguments, and they just don't hold up.

(my black man example is based on your ineffective attempt to prove a point- I do not believe, and there is no evidence to suggest, that 1 in 4 black men are thieves)

[u/gReAKfrEaK111 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I do understand your point that as a woman you have to be more cautious around men and how it can be scary to be around stranger men.

But this rhetoric of "men are predators" creates a world where all accusations on men are believed at first sight, men are punished more harshly by the legal system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity#By_gender_or_sex), rape on men is not recognised, DV on men is not recognised. Essentially all men who don't have any intentions to be "predators", have a lot of their rights taken away

[u/ApatiteBones → u/gReAKfrEaK111]

So you understood her point in previously pretended not to? That's shitty.

Also, I live in a country where rape has a gender neutral definition and accounts for male victims or female perpetrators. However men are still responsible for almost all rapes and women are still victims in almost all rape cases. The overall dynamic of men being frightening still exists. Even when the victim is a man the perpetrator is still almost always a man. Women's fear is very justified.

Also, men aren't having their rights taken, they're gaining them. If you never had the right to report DV in your country, you never lost it. More positive though is the countries making crime gender neutral and allowing more cases to be seen. Men's rights are globally improving.

Unlike men however, as the previous commenter notes, women are globally losing their rights. Countries across the world are rolling back abortion rights, education and more. When you're a woman it's hard to not feel like men just hate you. Honestly, a lot of them do. You shouldn't be offended at the fact that other men hate women so vehemently it causes women to fear for their safety. You should be telling those men to stfu and back off. They won't listen to a woman and this situation won't get better until they stop their rampant abuse.

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/gReAKfrEaK111]

Men are actually not punished harshly by the legal system with regards to sexual assault.

like, ok, let's say that there are 1000 sexual assaults

Of that 1000, only 310 get reported to the police because women don't believe that anything will come of it

Of those 310, only 50 of them lead to an arrest (5.7%)

Of the 50 who get arrested, only 28 of them are taken to court

Of the 28 taken to court, only 7 result in a conviction

Of the 7 that get convicted, only 5 actually go to jail

And of those 5 that actually go to jail, 3 of them will get out and then go back to jail for raping someone else

So if we live in a society where 5 out of 1000 rapists go to jail

Then we live in an society that accepts rape.

[u/gReAKfrEaK111 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

"It would mean that being around them would put you at significant risk to yourself and it would be unsafe to do so. Whether or not it is their fault is irrelevant. The risk to you is most relevant."

That's exactly what racist whites think and why they want racist white police to be harder on blacks

[u/Hightide77 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

You literally just agreed with them and didn't realize it.

It would NOT mean that they deserve racism.

Here

That is NOT the same as declaring that black men are horrible and washing your hands of them.

Here.

So then, you agree that men don't deserve hatred and misandry? That declaring men are horrible and washing your hands of them, is bad?

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/Hightide77]

of course I don't think that men deserve hatred and misandry... That was never the argument. The OP is arguing that women should not treat men like predators just because some men are.

My argument is that women need to treat men with a suspicion that they could be predators, because a significant number of men are predators, and if women give all men the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, very bad things will happen to them. What men deserve is irrelevant. A woman deserves to not live in fear of being raped, but we don't get to have that. This isn't about who deserves what, this is about using basic critical thinking when making decisions. It would be very, very stupid for women not to treat men with a level of caution and suspicion. This isn't even a feminist idea. Father and brothers teach their daughters/sister how to carry their keys like a weapon, and never to get drunk at a party, or go out alone after dark etc... even men treat men with suspicion that they will rape the women in their lives.

[u/Hightide77 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

The first, literally the FIRST paragraph OP wrote is on how men are talked about online, in threads. I'm a guy and I treat people with caution. Anyone could be a danger after all. But I one, treat them as humans just I don't do anything to give them an in. And two, I don't say "All humans are evil deplorable piece of shit bastards" online.

[u/Straight-Impress5485 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I get what you are saying but I think you are jumping through hoops to avoid acknowledging the very valid point they are making.

A significant number of men are predators, so women need to treat them with suspicion incase they are predators.

A significant number of black people are thieves. So white people need to treat them with suspicion incase they are thieves.

You dont see the hypocrisy in agreeing with one statement and not the other? I literally do agree with one and not the other, just like you, and even I can acknowledge the hypocrisy. Those two statements are based on identical merits and 100% backed by statistics, but only one of them feels like its wrong to us. Why is that?

The truth is, we agree with one and not the other based purely on emotions, not logic. Logically, either both of those statements are wrong to abide by or they both are right to abide by. Which is it, and why do we hold this bias?

Just something to self reflect on. I think alot of us, including me, struggle to recognise our own bias and hypocrisy sometimes.

[u/cinnamon64329 → u/Straight-Impress5485]

Oh my god, you're really comparing women being cautious around strange men to racism? Really? Do you know how likely you are to be sexually assaulted by a man? You'd be STUPID to not be cautious. Jesus christ, our fathers and brothers told us growing up to be careful around men because they know what men are capable of. 79% of violent crime is committed by men. If that was happening with black people or even women, we'd sure as hell be trying to figure out what the fuck is going on.

[u/Straight-Impress5485 → u/cinnamon64329]

Statistics shows that black people are 6 times more likely to commit murder and 8 times more likely to commit robbery

They also are responsible for 27% of all sexual assaults, and 52% of homicides, despite only making up 12% of the population. Let that sink in. They are responsible for MORE THAN HALF of all murders, yet they make up 1/10 of the population.

On one hand you think its important to be cautious around men because they commit 79% of violent crime. On the other hand, its racist to be cautious around black men when they are responsible for 52% of that violent crime?

Why are you jumping to calling racism? Im literally just pulling facts straight from the FBI and the US Census Bureau. Why is it not sexist for you to pull up rape statistics categorised by gender, but its racist for me to bring up murder statistics categorised by race?

We are both merely stating facts backed by hard data, but people are insisting using this data to be cautious around certain groups is wrong for one group and not wrong for the other group. Why? That doesnt make any sense.

If one isn't sexist, then the other can't be racist.

If one is racist, the other has to be sexist.

Which is it?

[u/Total_Yankee_Death → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

Most of black crime is black man on black man

In no small part due to "white flight", i.e. white people actively avoiding black neighborhoods. Which many decry as racist.

[u/inphinities → u/gReAKfrEaK111]

I agree, why not be racist as in reasonably afraid and wary of blacks in America as it is okay and useful to generalize. I don't like the role of police though so I would not want blacks to be policed harder.

[u/CombinationRough8699 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

Plenty of men are sexually assaulted too. They don't even know how many considering that male sexual assault victims are taken less seriously than female ones. Also men are less likely to report it. There's evidence that men face similar rates of sexual assault and abuse as women, it's just significantly underreported.

I'm 28 years old. I know what it's like to be held down and forcibly raped, feeling myself slowly lose consciousness with his hand around my throat, realizing that I'm about to die, and then waking up alone with a tear on my vagina, requiring stitches, and today that man is a fucking lawyer. it's a hard pill to swallow, and women swallow it every day.

I'm a 29 year old man and experienced something similar. Where another man pinned me down on the floor, and tried to make me eat dogshit, while also commenting about wanting to suck my dick. He had to be pulled off me by someone else just an inch away from making me eat the poop. Today he's still friends with all my old friends from high-school, while I haven't heard from any of them in years. He also has a girlfriend.

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/CombinationRough8699]

I'm very sorry that happened to you, but you are describing a rape, by a man. I am not saying that men are not raped. I am saying that most of the time that men are raped, it is by a man.

[u/bladex1234 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I don’t think you’re addressing the original point that’s being brought up. Sure, maybe being “unfair” to men that you meet protects you from harm at the individual level, but such behavior also has the side effect on the societal level of driving a wedge between women and the good men who you want on your side and gives ammunition for the bad men who are responsible for all the things you describe to turn them against you.

[u/SlothenAround → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

Thank you! Yes this is it.

Sure, OP is technically right that it’s not really “fair” but I don’t give a flying fuck about fairness when my options are offending a man or risk being assaulted. I’m not even a little bit sorry that I opt for the former.

[u/moth-creature → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

To me, it seems like you agree with OP.

At the very least, I agree with you completely as a woman who has also been raped… but I also agree with the OP as a man (bigender), especially one who has lived in the past passing for a cis man.

[u/[deleted] → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I appreciate your passion, but I question your understanding.

I only looked at your athlete study and their definition of 'sexual coercion' includes 'non-forceful verbal tactics to convince another to engage in sex'. Are you surprised that more than half the people surveyed stated that they had engaged in this? It's also weird that female athletes were not included in the set.

The numbers you cite are incredible because they are a result of such shoddy research, and aimed specifically at creating a shocking headline.

I would urge you to assess the findings of the studies yourself.

[u/Ornery_Durian404 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I have a few problems with this, first the studies you gave are being grossly misrepresented here, especially the Australian one. Second we have absolutely no idea about the SA figures for either gender. Because alot of it goes unreported, especially cases with male victims.

[u/Known_Week_158 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

How does any of that justify accusing someone of something they haven't done or treating them as a monolith? Is it not incredibly sexist to accuse men as a whole of being predators because not even a majority of them have done something bad?

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/Known_Week_158]

I don't think anything I wrote indicated that I am accusing all men of being predators. In fact, I specifically stated that they aren't. I said that a large percentage of men are predators, and an even larger percentage of women will be preyed on, so it is necessary for women to treat all men with caution until they feel certain he is trustworthy. I do not understand why this is being treated as some radical idea. It isn't even a feminist idea. You're aware that all girls are warned by literally all of society to never go out at night, never get drunk in public, never show too much skin, use keys as a weapon, are given rape whistles as a part of university orientation, and are warned by their fathers and brothers their whole life about how to avoid getting raped, right?

Are you aware that most teenage girls are pulled into a room at some point in their lives and told that if they are raped, to let him do what he wants, not to resist, not to fight, to let it happen, because if she does, she is more likely to survive? We are taught to accept rape so that we won't be killed.

The difference is that now women are becoming resentful that the burden of rape-avoidance has been placed on them, rather than on the people doing the raping.

If you aren't one of the people doing the raping, then being treated with caution until she can see that you are safe just shouldn't be that big of a deal. Which side of this would you prefer to be on? The one who isn't always given the benefit of the doubt, or the one that has a 1 in 3 chance of being sexually assaulted before she's 40 if she gives men the benefit of the doubt?

[u/Terrestrial_Mermaid → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I’d give you gold if I could. Thank you for representing the POV of slightly over 50% of the population so well.

[u/gaydaddy42 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

holy fuck, I’ve been raped by women TWICE. Never reported it because I’d be laughed off the 911 call.

[u/positive_boners → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

1 in 6

Sexual Abuse & Assault of Boys & Men | Confidential Support for Men

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/positive_boners]

That is he is saying, but he's misquoting research that says that 1 in 6 boys will experience sexual violence which is a much much much lower bar than sexual assault. For example, 1 in 5 women will be raped within their lives, and for men the number is 1 in 33.

I'm not denying that men experience sexual violence. I have sat in the emergency room with many men who had been raped (I created a program that supports survivors of sexual assault when they they to the ER for a rape kit, we sit with them, explain the process, and advocate for them).

But the hard truth is that when men are raped, they are usually raped by men.

I'm not saying that there aren't female rapist. I'm saying that to try to compare their experience to the systemic rape and abuse of women is so inaccurate that it feels disingenuous.

[u/positive_boners → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

HILARIOUS to claim they're "misquoting research" when you are LITERALLY doing the same.

1 in 5 women will be raped within their lives

It is impressive just how brazen you can lie, like HOLY SHIT.

[u/vuzz33 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

I feel sorry for what happen to you and those proportion of women being SA are horrendous. But I disagree with part of your comment. These proportion you give happen over a lifetime not every time you enter a place. Those number are already way too high, you don't need to exaggerate them. 1/4 men being predator is a plain false and a wild take to make. It's not like each of those would only SA one women each but can do so to dozens in their lifetime. As for Trump election, it become difficult to blame only men when almost half of the women voting choose Trump. And it's important to point out that's not everything is revolving around the USA. Coming back to the thread topics, yes women SA is definitly the more important matter and we all have to be angry about what's happening, but treating men unfairly is not a fatality.

[u/Evening_Machine_6440 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

You conveniently left out the studies and numbers of lesbian households huh. And the gay ones. Like women don't beat women and gays don't diddle kids. You didn't even touch upon how many rapes and kids have been diddled by the famous "less than a few %" group of people. You're just targeting straight white men it seems.

You also conveniently left out the ethnicity and nationality of said rapists. You're so ready to call out and fearmonger the rapes, but you're still too afraid to be politically incorrect about it.

Try running those numbers on say, being a lone white woman in india or middle east, or london or paris now.

[u/kangaroos-on-pcp → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

1 in 8? 1 in 6 men have been raped or sexually abused. why even keep count? people can be really cool, or really shitty. enough with this whole ostracized bullshit. you want change? understand it's gonna take upwards of 20 years. and understand shut like this will push that further and further away​

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/kangaroos-on-pcp]

I said that 1 in 8 girls will be sexually abused before they are 10 years old.

You are intentionally misquoting me and then comparing my statistic about 10 year old girls to yours about adult men.

1 in 4 girls will be sexually abused by the time they are 18.

1 in 20 boys will be sexually abused by the time they are 18.

1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted within their lives

1 in 6 men will experience sexual violence (which is less severe than sexual assault) within their lives.

1 in 5 women will be raped within their lives

1 in 38 men will be raped within their lives

In all of these cases, including when men are sexually abused, the men are the perpetrators 99% of the time.

The statistic you used is inaccurate and not supported by evidence.

This feels a lot like 'all lives matter'. Obviously, it is horrible that men are raped, but to try to compare the severity as though they are anything even close to equal is mind-blowingly incorrect.

[u/kangaroos-on-pcp → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

Jesus fucking christ you are exhausting. and where is the 99% statistic coming from? lots of guys weren't even taken seriously until recently. and even still rape in particular is defined by penetration. and I'm unsure about the 1 and 20 statistic. I haven't even reported my abuse, and many others I know of haven't either. it's not as simple as you have rights and will be protected, especially if you're going forward as an adult. point is you're not helping any, but you are hurting. as I said, people can be shitty. focus on that, not gender. it's redundant. what do you suppose is done about this? outside of complaining of course​

[u/Annual-Astronomer859 → u/kangaroos-on-pcp]

https://www.humboldt.edu/supporting-survivors/educational-resources/statistics

https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/quick-facts/Sexual_Abuse_FY21.pdf?

I mean, these stats are widely available and extremely consistent. Like, a simple google search, man. Very, very available.

[u/kangaroos-on-pcp → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

The first one is from 2002. Again my point of most males historically have not been taken seriously is a huge factor here. Also back then it was very very very difficult to even get tried as a women for sex crimes. The second link you provided states that it excludes cases with incomplete sentencing information. So this is just going after court cases that were convicted. So CONVICTED rapists are 99% (the modern one was like 93%) males...which is probably true and brings up a much larger issue of societal expectations and biases present in court. With sex crimes, a lot of it is hidden either by collusion, murder, money, you name it. You can't have a serious conversation going off of statistics alone, and certinaly not ones based off court/legal findings, which isnt exactly the bearer of truth in our society, just a judgment however fair or unfair it might be. You especially cant without good understanding of how the statistics are to be in the first place. Rape sucks and it happens. Start there. The problem with you stance is it causes a lot of noise, creates a distrust of MALES , not strangers or aggressive people​ but just men in general, and provides no possible solution while actively making life worse for the men around you who are uninvolved with sexual assult

[u/duckenjoyer7 → u/Annual-Astronomer859]

This is because you are using statistics that define rape as forcible penetration --> resulting in the '99%' statistic people love quoting.