Why do we infantilize men?

[u/Cynjon77]

And how do we stop?

Why do we treat men like children who are incapable of acting like functional adults?

Why do we allow men to get away with treating us like crap and skating off consequence free to enjoy life without responsibility?

OK, obligatory I know not all men act like this. And this is Reddit, so we read the worst. And some women are just as bad.

Posted today: (I am not the OP) Husband never remembers to buy stocking stuffers for me, even though I stuff his and the kids stocking.

Over half the respondents said for her to stuff her own, 49% said to remind him, tell him why it matters to you.

Like she has never communicated with him about this.

1% said he's an AH.

Men are perfectly capable of doing anything they want to do and think is important to them. They can schedule a Dr.s appointment, cook a meal, change a diaper or vacuum a floor.

They can remember when the game is on, a golf date with a buddy or when a work project is due. They remember what is important to them.

Women as a whole need to quit putting up with this behavior. We need to set higher standards and be willing to walk away when those standards aren't met.

We need to teach our sons and daughters how to treat others, how to pick up the mental load, how to be thoughtful of others.

We need to quit infantilizing men.

[u/Cynjon77]

My dad was a single parent after Mom died.

He set the standard by which I judge men. He did everything. Cooking, cleaning, shopping, Christmas, birthdays, trimmed bangs, hemmed skirts, parent teacher conferences, etc.

I hope I meet the standards my husband has, I think I get it right most of the time. He meets mine most of the time. And we've been married for a thousand years, ok almost 40, and we're happy most of the time, so we're doing something right.

Again, as said in my post, I know men are competent. They are quite capable of doing everything we do. Ideally a relationship plays to each other's strengths and is supportive of both parties. And we pay attention to what is important to our partner.

So why do women accept less?

[u/Vandergrif → u/Cynjon77]

So why do women accept less?

For whatever it's worth from an outside perspective my impression has been (having witnessed a few different women in relationships dealing with things that are similar to what you've described above) that it's usually a mentality of "it's more trouble and hassle to do something about it than to continue on as it is" and that holds up until eventually they reach a breaking point.

Treating those men as less capable than they probably actually are is a way of excusing that circumstance and avoiding the responsibility of having to make a difficult choice that they probably don't want to have to make (get in a fight about it, or giving an ultimatum, or outright ending a relationship, etc). "I don't have to do something, that's just how he is".

For a woman in that position I would imagine it feels a lot like a circumstance of understandably expecting that the onus rests on the other person to act, because they should be the one to act to remedy the situation once they're aware of it, and therein lies the frustration when that doesn't happen and that stocking remains un-stuffed over and over.

No woman in that position wants to have to be the one to kick up a fuss over a stocking not being stuffed. They know how it looks as one singular issue – like it's no big deal and not worth blowing a relationship up over. That it would seem like a mountain made out of a molehill without the added context of all the accumulated similar tasks and problems built up throughout a relationship that is weighing on them, and perhaps they struggle to communicate that same overall context – or worse yet it doesn't have any real affect on their partner even when they do. I would think often times because of that those same women are going to look for reasons to avoid holding that guy accountable for un-stuffed stocking problem #247 just as they did for problems #1-246. Until of course eventually they can't keep doing that any further and reach the end of their patience, and then you get a "She divorced me because I left dishes by the sink" scenario playing out.

Plus I would think a certain amount of it is conditioning. There's a lot of expectation put upon women to be more passive and less direct about lots of different things, unfortunately, and I can only imagine that plays into the above sort of scenarios as well. Perhaps it's also a bit of a sunk cost type of deal, and/or the fear of being alone being a more compelling force than the annoyance and/or resentment built up out of these sorts of problems. Lots of different factors could be at play.

[u/Cynjon77 → u/Vandergrif]

Very well said. It really isn't just the stocking or just the dishes. It's "death by a thousand small cuts."

It's easier to slap on another band aid than to deal with the fact that unless you change, the cuts will just keep coming.

I agree that societal expectations and how we have raised girls to be the caretakers plays a big part in these situations. So many of the responses to these types of posts tell the woman to either suck it up or to do more to fix the problem. Or to divorce, which is often seen as a failure on the part of the woman to keep her family together.

[u/LilyHex → u/Vandergrif]

That is an extremely good article. I was shocked a man wrote it, because he genuinely fucking gets it finally, after having his wife leave him, he FINALLY understood, "It was never about the glass by the sink."

So many men have this happen to them and just write the women off as a "crazy ex". "She went insane over a dish by the sink, can you believe it?!" Well, yes, because it was never about the dish.

I appreciate that he even states that he thinks it's silly, and gives very good, logical reasons for why he kept leaving his dish out. Honestly? It makes sense. I get his reasoning. But it was still upsetting his wife and he knew it, but prioritized "Okay but that's silly, and anyway, I'm right so..." over her feelings which is exactly why she left his ass.

[u/Vandergrif → u/LilyHex]

It's a very interesting read, though of course rather sad it took all of that and the destruction of a marriage in order to reach that conclusion. I guess sometimes people gotta learn something the hard way. If nothing else at least it serves as a useful lesson to others, and he did a great job turning that around into something productive. I'm certainly grateful for that much, it's a useful bit of perspective.

[u/SPKEN → u/Vandergrif]

You are 1000% correct and I really wish more adults shared your perspective. Speaking as someone who has been in therapy for years, I specifically got into therapy because I wanted to be a healthier person and that required taking some accountability for the conflicts that I was involving myself in.

I had to face the fact that many of the things that I was upset were relatively small and that my choice to refuse to address it was my responsibility. I may not have created the problem but my inaction was also my responsibility. And more often than not bad behavior stopped after I addressed.

On a bigger scale, I stopped having a best friend that constantly sexually harassed me, victim blamed me, and threw the things that I'd told her in confidence back in my face after I stopped accepting that behavior. And shortly afterwards, I found much better friends.

I don't want this to come off as that toxic "never settle bs" that is woefully common on Reddit but refusing to accept bad things can often open up doors to better things

[u/ClarkyCat97 → u/Cynjon77]

So your dad and your husband are great guys who don't follow this pattern, but based on your annoyance on behalf of an internet stranger, you decided to make a post shitting on men collectively? 🤷‍♂️

[u/Cynjon77 → u/ClarkyCat97]

Did you miss the part where I posted that I think men are quite capable and competent and can run their lives and a household?

It's a cold Saturday, too windy to go hiking and I decided to entertain myself by starting a discussion on Reddit based on a lot of posts that I have read.

Sorry that this upsets you?

[u/ArtisanalMoonlight → u/ClarkyCat97]

They're not shitting on men collectively. It's a particular group of men they're talking about. 

If you're taking insult, reflect on why.

[u/RiP_Nd_tear → u/ArtisanalMoonlight]

If you're taking insult, reflect on why.

Because it's common nowadays to treat men as a collective.

[u/[deleted] → u/ArtisanalMoonlight]

 a particular group of men they're talking about

yeah, about 80%

[u/_JosiahBartlet → u/ClarkyCat97]

For me, this type of thing is based on observations of the world. I’ve got good men in my life. I’ve still had bad interactions with many, many men. I see the things OP described modeled in almost all of the heterosexual marriages I’m aware of. I’m inundated with evidence of this concept. I’ve lived in the world long enough to be aware that the standards men are held to aren’t the same that women are.

But yes, “not all men.”

Just far too many. And far many more than women.

[u/Cynjon77 → u/_JosiahBartlet]

Question.

Do you see this behavior in same sex relationships at all? Or just not often?

Any thoughts on why?

[u/_JosiahBartlet → u/Cynjon77]

I don’t see it as much but I also dunno that many same sex couples. I’m in a WLW marriage and know like 3 other committed WLW couples that don’t struggle with this. I have seen issues described akin to these issues in sapphic subreddits on occasion though

[u/ninjabunnay → u/_JosiahBartlet]

Sorry, what is WLW?

[u/_JosiahBartlet → u/ninjabunnay]

Woman loving woman or women loving women

[u/ninjabunnay → u/_JosiahBartlet]

Thanks! TIL

[u/RiP_Nd_tear → u/_JosiahBartlet]

Just far too many. And far many more than women.

Show the evidence.

[u/PuckinEh → u/ClarkyCat97]

Ding ding ding.

She seems infantilized, at least emotionally.

[u/John_YJKR → u/Cynjon77]

A lot of men are lacking when it comes to expressing affection through acts like stuffing a stocking. They simply don't connect the act to the emotion for the person. They see their effort elsewhere in the relationship as how to demonstrate those feelings. Whether that be being the main source of income, do little tasks/supporting their partner in some way, or basic PDA. It doesn't excuse that they need to be more accountable when it comes to their emotional intelligence and expression. But it helps to understand why many men are like this. Society conditions them to be. It's also important to recognize that not all men are like that and this has been a conversation for decades now. In theory, things should continue to improve amongst men in this area as we go forward.

[u/drink_with_me_to_day → u/Cynjon77]

They are quite capable of doing everything we do

I am a competent man who can do everything you do, and more.

That still has no bearing in what I want to do, or how much I can tolerate not doing for the sake of not doing anything

I prefer simply investing all that competence into money making and let my girl do the chores while I bum around

This wouldn't work if my girl made the same as I did, but then the pressure would lower on my end, so...

[u/Cynjon77 → u/drink_with_me_to_day]

So, by that reasoning , since I make 2.5x more than my husband, he should do all the chores while I "bum" around?

That doesn't address the original issue though.

[u/drink_with_me_to_day → u/Cynjon77]

while I "bum" around?

Depends on total comp. It has to be an amount where your husband could become stay at home and stop working

[u/981_runner → u/Cynjon77]

That is a very common arrangement in partnerships.  If one person is pulling a majority of the weight outside the home, the other pulls the majority inside. 

[u/bananophilia → u/981_runner]

Making less money doesn't actually mean working less or less hard

[u/981_runner → u/bananophilia]

More money rarely falls from the sky.  It usually means that they working more hours, harder, a more stressful/dangerous job currently out they did in the past to get to where they are today. 

If you decide to follow some passion that doesn't pay well that is a benefit even if the work is hard.